Sportive Punch Up at "The Dragon Fiasco"

[mrcharly-YHT]

It has closed roads.

I still think the organisation sounds bad. Too few toilets for one thing (4 for 400people? seriously?)

Get rid of registration. It's slow and causes huge queues.
People pay their fee, get a number/transponder sent by post. Pre-nominate an estimated target time. At the start, you get in your group. Your start time is allocated by the group start time - if you are in the wrong group, tough.

People are more spread out at the finish and this is where individual finishing times need to be recorded, either by swiping a transponder or a bib number recorded.

Sure people can cheat (by nominating a longer estimate time then setting off with a fast group that starts earlier). But it isn't a race and they are only cheating themselves.

[Martin]

a clubmate did this ride;

he did the 70km route with 4500 ft (?) of climb;

I can do that from my house for £2.50 and get AAA

You can get to climb Bwlch and Rhigos in a 70km loop from East Sussex?

better; The Wall and Toy's Hill

[Majorbloodnok]

Can't be audaxers then, those tight bastards wouldn't fork-out on Gels, besides, they make your beard all sticky 

You are almost right but instead the audaxer would simply rub the gel into their beard before starting the event and then suck out all the goodness en-route.

What happens if I forget my gels?  At present my mate often has a spare.......surly sucking ones own beard is okay...but....

[Philip Whiteman]

On a more serious point, any organiser setting off this number off riders onto a public road at an event has got to pushing the barriers a tad too far.  I have ridden sportives where the limit has been a bit more responsible.

Aside from the obvious discomfort to the participants involved, the organisers should deliberate concertively about the political ramifications of their actions.  Police and highways authorities could easily adopt a negative view to events that yield this number of riders into traffic on open roads.  The resulting actions would have implications for all events.

Police already have powers to forbid the racing of bicycles on the open road under the  Cycle Racing on the Highways Regulations 1960.  Races and time trials are strictly governed by BC & CTT with whom the Police negotiate. Equally AUK restricts its events from breaching these statutes by forbidding racing.  Sportives are not governed and events such as the Dragon Ride feel that they can have carte blanche.

Unfortunately, some sportives occupy a grey area created which could fall foul of this legislation through the ranking of riders. This by default could cause authorities to classify the events as races.  In the instance of the Dragon Ride, I note that they rank the fastest finishers and it could therefore easily deemed a race and vulnerable to existing legislation.

It will only take a serious fatility.  A move to prevent such events would cause untold damage on other responsible sportive events.  Even worse would be a restriction placed on all forms of cycling events, audax included.

[Exit Stage Left]

They had 4000 competitors and it took 2hours to get started?

So - about 10x the number of riders of the 2009 LEL; where it took a similar amount of time to register, AFAIA.

I know, I was at the back of that queue. Until it occured to me that I was an AUK member as well, and got behind the desk to help sort stuff out. That's the joy of volunteer-run events, anyone can pitch in.

[Martin]

is there a maximum speed on sportives? that's how Audax and Reliability trials get round it

[Philip Whiteman]

is there a maximum speed on sportives?

In one word, no.  But it is not speed that is the problem.  The problem lays with the publication of times where the riders can be ranked in order of finishing. Sensible sportive organisers don't provide that facility or at the very least they produce bandings. AUK do even better by only publishing successful finishers.

[AndyH]

It's this kind of smug, superior attitude that puts me off audax.

I've some sympathy with Rhys's comment. Have we not done the Audax vs Sportive thing to death? I much prefer Audax, & if I was fast enough to be towards the front of Sportives I'd rather go road racing, where IMO it is done "properly" with sensibly sized fields, commisaires etc. But like Rhys if a Sportive is on my doorstep I will very probably ride it.

You can get to climb Bwlch and Rhigos in a 70km loop from East Sussex?

You can get to climb those two and more on "Down with the British", more of a 200k loop though. 

[Rhys W]

I still think the organisation sounds bad. Too few toilets for one thing (4 for 400people? seriously?)

You shouldn't believe everything you read. I think this was a reference to the toilets in the car park. There were plenty more in the start/finish village, alongside the barriers at the start, and at all 3 feed stations.

[Rhys W]

It will only take a serious fatility.  

Most fatalities are, I think you'll find, rather serious to those involved. 

I don't know what the local police think (and the police in the Vale of Glamorgan are a law unto themselves when it comes to cyclists), but I'm always pleasantly surprised at the number of people sitting in their gardens, watching the spectacle go past and cheering the riders on. I think the police's only objection was riders jumping red lights, hence the marshalls at key junctions to take down numbers. What concerns me more is the number of people riding without entering, or under someone else's name - an accident involving those could be trouble for the organisers.

[De Sisti]

What concerns me more is the number of people riding ......under someone else's name - an accident involving those could be trouble for the organisers.

I don't know what the problem would be if there was such an accident. Surely, an
ambulance would turned up and take the injured rider to hospital, the rider would
(hopefully) get better in time, and that would be it.

I know someone will come on say "what about the insurance implications?". Well, if there
are any, could someone please explain them to me?

[fuaran]

I've done the Great North Run a couple of times. That has 54 000 runners, costs SFA to enter and starts on time..

Doesn't the Great North Run cost over £40 to enter?

[mattc]

They had 4000 competitors and it took 2hours to get started?

So - about 10x the number of riders of the 2009 LEL; where it took a similar amount of time to register, AFAIA.

I'm pretty sure riders complained about that (maybe not 4000, admittedly).

I'm always up for a bit of sportive-bashing, but to be fair:
LEL09:
 - registration disaster as Chris mentions,
 - start times not policed, so some riders 'gained' 40 minutes or more (but technically no q-jumping, cos AUKs are never rude!)

PBP:
 - 20minute queues for food at some controls
 - massive q-jumping at the start, which annoyed people who arrived 2hrs before start [not me, I arrived an hour after the start]

So I suspect all big events are prone to problems. Although some of the issues under discussion are brought on themselves by sportifs (or is that sportivists ?)

[Banjo]

What concerns me more is the number of people riding ......under someone else's name - an accident involving those could be trouble for the organisers.

I don't know what the problem would be if there was such an accident. Surely, an
ambulance would turned up and take the injured rider to hospital, the rider would
(hopefully) get better in time, and that would be it.

I know someone will come on say "what about the insurance implications?". Well, if there
are any, could someone please explain them to me?

I dont know about insurance but if you ride under someone elses name and have an accident the registered persons next of kin could be told their nearest and dearest is in hospital when in fact you are and they are down the pub.

[Gandalf]

An unbiased and entirely non partisan 'review' here 

http://www.cyclosport.org/07-Jun-2011/news/the-wiggle-dragon-ride-wales-review.html

[GruB]

I am doing an Audax on Saturday ,will cost me double ethe Dragon price with fuel to get there cafe stops etc but what price is a good day out?

Indeed. Reminds me about a similar conversation I was having during a recent 600km Audax:-

£12 entry fee.
£30 train tickets to/from the start (~300km each way).
£60 hotel on Friday and Sunday nights.
£30 on food during the event (not bad for ~15,000kcal).

= £132

Plus probably £5 of wear and tear on the bike (~£100 a year for 10,000km is about right).

This is what I came to see as the 'hidden' cost of audax. 

[Jasmine]

Perhaps I am a sad and sick individual by gloating, but is'nt it amusing to watch a verbal punch up about a disasterious sportive just to remind you why the commercialisation of cycle events is a bad idea.  Viva Audax.

It's this kind of smug, superior attitude that puts me off audax. The Tour de France was started as a stunt to sell newspapers in 1903 FFS.

I'm with you on this.  I don't like the 'I do this type of riding and you're stupid because you do something else' attitude at all, whether what you do is sportive, audax, TT, crits, CTC rides or riding to the shop.

tbh Audax costs me a fortune unless I DIY due to the massive travelling costs, so I don't do much.  I can ride some significant hills & scenic routes without paying for any entry fee - it's a public road.  I choose to engage in whatever I want to engage in.

All that is important: whatever you ride, as long as you do

[Jaded]

Unless the sportives are nearby they ave travelling costs too. Looking at the list of costs of an Audax upthread, surely only the food is the difference. Plus you'd have to eat something during a day anyway.

[LEE]

I am doing an Audax on Saturday ,will cost me double ethe Dragon price with fuel to get there cafe stops etc but what price is a good day out?

Indeed. Reminds me about a similar conversation I was having during a recent 600km Audax:-

£12 entry fee.
£30 train tickets to/from the start (~300km each way).
£60 hotel on Friday and Sunday nights.
£30 on food during the event (not bad for ~15,000kcal).

= £132

Plus probably £5 of wear and tear on the bike (~£100 a year for 10,000km is about right).

This is what I came to see as the 'hidden' cost of audax. 

Greenbank is probably referring to the Bryan Chapman 600 which is a fairly extreme 2 day Audax event.

A 600km Sportive would incur some considerable costs I imagine.

Don't forget you get a night's accomodation thrown in for free on the Bryan Chapman (or 2 hours depending on who you are) as well as free food at some controls.

A 200km Audax is more akin to a Sportive and they really only cost the small entry fee if they are local.

Ride to the start, take some sarnies, ride to end and ride home.  £5.

If you weren't riding all day then you'd probably be spending more money at Homebase or the Garden Centre anyway.

[Jasmine]

Yes, but when people here are putting down sportives based on how expense they are, it needs to b put in perpective.  For me, a 200 km audax vs 200 km sportive might be:
£5 entry vs £40 (I think the Dragon ride is one of the most expensive)
£75 train fare
£30 friday night accommodation (very late train in the evening after the event)
£15 on food vs £not much

Total £125 vs £145 - so not actually much in it considering they would both be over £100.  Doesn't make audax look cheap, unless you live somewhere a lot of rides start.

But my point was that there is no need to sneer at the way other people choose to particpate in cycling.  Putting sportives down doesn't make audax seem more welcoming.  There can be a lot of snobbery and cliquiness in audaxing that might put people off it were the first thing new people encounter.  It's not always like that, but I've come across a lot of it.

[Greenbank]

Indeed, that was my point, by the time you add up all of the other costs (accommodation, travel, food, etc) the difference in entry fees (£5 vs £40) becomes a lot less significant.

Sure you can cycle to/from the start of events, take your own food, wild camp and mill you own inner tubes out of cow parsley but that's not the point of the comparison.

P.S. It doesn't matter what 600 it was, I was trying not to name it because it's unimportant what specific 600 it was (and it wasn't the BCM anyway).

[AndyH]

Whichever 600 it was the principal is the same. We were looked after on that ride as well  . I've spent quite a lot driving round the country to do Audax events, but it'd be pretty similar if I was driving off to Sportives. And I bought a bike, which I had to pay for.

In a previous life I learned to fly. My brother likes participating in motor sport. Some freinds & relations seem to enjoy golf (which has always confused me, I wouldn't know which end to hold the bat). The expense involved in many other pastimes makes our Audax / Sportive / whatever form of cycling expenditure pale into insignificance.

Next year I plan to drive to only 1 event, I'll ride to the rest 

[GruB]

It is a good point though about the distance.  I was comparing my experience of 600k and 400k audax vs a 200k sportive.  If it was like for like then the audax on cost alone wins hands down for the lesser expense.

[mattc]

I found the BikeRadar thread very useful - I've learned a new cliché:

Dentist on a Pinarello

[LEE]

It is a good point though about the distance.  I was comparing my experience of 600k and 400k audax vs a 200k sportive.  If it was like for like then the audax on cost alone wins hands down for the lesser expense.

I forgot that some people spend a lot of money travelling to non-local 200km Auaxes.  In that case the difference between Audax and Sportives wouldn't bother me.  The cost of Sportives doesn't bother me anyway, if that's what they cost then that's what they cost.  As mentioned above there are far more expensive hobbies.

I've never done a 200 Audax that I can't drive to or cycle to the morning of the ride so that keeps my Audax costs down.  

The main drawback of Sportives seems to be the complete lack of a Full-English Breakfast option at any of their controls.

Note.  What I do find staggering though is when you multiply the number of sportive riders on a prestigious event by the entry fee.  You get some very large sums of money involved.  Does all the money go back into the organisation (marshalls/insurance/admin/tech) or are these events profit-making?