Sportive Punch Up at "The Dragon Fiasco"

[rogerzilla]

On the subject of the gels; maybe the organisers could provide bins by the marshalls and/or insist that riders return as many packets as they went out with, or no finishing position is awarded.  I can see why people don't want to carry a sticky empty gel pouch (the damn things should be banned outside pro events IMO since they're such a temptation to litter), but there are ways round this, such as carrying a small freezer bag to put the remains in.

Disclaimer: I was given a gel once by a fellow rider on the Dun Run and it tasted vile.

[Jaded]

Too salty?

[Exit Stage Left]

Helpful and supportive. I say the magic words 'it's not a race, it's just a ride' and they're cool. I suspect that one day I'll be asked for meetings or risk assessments, but that's fine.

Don't forget that we have our own transparent risk assessment procedure on here. LEL - Road Surface on B709  The main issue is how we disseminate that kind of information to all participants.

[GruB]

I can see why people don't want to carry a sticky empty gel pouch (the damn things should be banned outside pro events IMO since they're such a temptation to litter), but there are ways round this, such as carrying a small freezer bag to put the remains in.

A lot of the Topeak seat packs have a mesh area on one side.  I find it handy to stuff gel wrappers in there to avoid that stickiness in the pocket.  But of paramount importance when using a gel or considering using any item with a wrapper for that matter - one SHALL NOT LITTER.  Pure and simple. 

Littering is pure ignorance and there is no excuse.

[Martin]

the people that throw litter on rides are filthy pigs; pure and simple. The only Audax I've ever seen this on was the Tour of the Hills which attracts a large proportion of riders that don't do other Audax events.

I don't know if sportive riders think their high entry fee covers someone to go and clear up after them; it doesn't.

Take your litter with you or take 10 seconds to find a bin like the rest of us  

or eat bananas?

[Jaded]

They are no better than the wind the car window down merchants, or flytippers. Lazy, ignorant fucks.

[rogerzilla]

Admittedly, the state of UK road verges is now so vile that they probably think it won't make much difference.  We're not quite down to Portugese levels though; there is wind-blown litter everywhere you look in the Algarve.

[Andrij]

Admittedly, the state of UK road verges is now so vile that they probably think it won't make much difference.  We're not quite down to Portugese levels though; there is wind-blown litter everywhere you look in the Algarve.

The Algarve, a favourite of British tourists and ex-pats? 
 

[GruB]

I don't give a shit about Portugal.  I live here.  Littering and fly tipping and to a lesser degree poor recycling is pure and utter ignorance and or laziness.  Scum.

[EdinburghFixed]

What concerns me more is the number of people riding without entering...

Sweet jesus, member of the public uses public road while it is open! I guess the tabloids might go crazy with it though.

[Banjo]

What concerns me more is the number of people riding without entering...

Sweet jesus, member of the public uses public road while it is open! I guess the tabloids might go crazy with it though.

A friend of mine didnt know it was on and got quite a shock when they started catching her on the Rhigos 


I wouldnt deliberately ride the route without entering but as you say theres no legal reason not to.

[Martin]

What concerns me more is the number of people riding without entering...

Sweet jesus, member of the public uses public road while it is open! I guess the tabloids might go crazy with it though.

if the ride's full and people just turn up on the day who cares? as long as it does not make the event more overcrowded and dangerous (as happens on the L2B) they can't charge for atmosphere

on the French ones I've ridden they have a more draconian approach; your number has a tear off tag, if you try and get anywhere near the start (public road or no) without one the gendarmes don't let you in...

just went back over to Sportiveradar; noticed this, "Hardest sportive in the SE", what a load of wank, 1900m climb on a 200?

SRS Events - Burgess Hill Cyclosportives

[giropaul]

Whilst applauding people enjoying a sporting activity, as a cycling community I feel we have to recognise there is a risk that the increasing volume of events and field sizes will result in organised cycling events being, at best, regulated.

As an audax rider (and organiser), it's perfectly legitimate to worry about this prospect, given any regulations are unlikely to distinguish between a sportive and an audax event.

This is the issue for me. I am convinced, and friends of mine , including serving police officers, that it will only take one serious incident, and ALL organised cycling events will be banned.

Most of the public don't see any distinction between Auaxes, Sportives, Road Races and even Time Trials. They also don't see why they are legal, when other competition on the roads isn't (their opinion, not mine!)

Let's hope it never happens, but just imagine a , for example, sportive, when a descending group meets a minibus full of Brownies. Bus goes off road - injuries and fatalities.

The public call for the stopping of all cycling in groups would lead to legislation.

If we don't sensibly control our own activities, then the law will. 4,000 riders of very diverse ability isn't controlling our own activities I'm afraid.

[TimO]

What exactly do you mean by a serious incident though?  There certainly have been fatalities in groups of cyclists, out for club runs and similar, which I'd say counts as pretty serious, and there have been fatalities on large organised rides, I know of one on the Dun Run (which admittedly is fairly lightly organised), and I'd imagine there have been others.

It would be almost impossible to legislate against group rides, after all what exactly would that cover?  Even on commutes, I can find myself surrounded by a dozen other cyclists, by no sane definition would that be a group ride, but it could easily fall afoul of a legal definition designed to stop people going for a ride with a group of people (like a FNRttC).

Racing is slightly different, and it would be difficult to use any legislation against group riding to stop a time trial.  Time trials of course actually have their origin in the potential risk of the authorities trying to stop racing on public roads, hence the historical wearing of all black, and the code names given to race routes.

[rogerzilla]

Fatality of a motor vehicle passenger, because they are humans whereas cyclists are perverted aliens from the planet Weirdo.

[TimO]

I would think the number of occasions that a car occupant has been killed in a collision with a cyclist are very small (approaching zero).

Given that it's possible, in a modern car, to survive a fairly high speed impact with another motor vehicle, or stationary object, the chances of something as flimsy and lightweight as most cycles, doing much damage to a car or it's occupants, is very unlikely.

In a worst case scenario, if the car hit the cyclist fast enough and they went over the bonnet and then through the windscreen, that could involve a fatality of a car occupant, although it would almost certainly have a similar effect on the cyclist.

[perpetual dan]

What exactly do you mean by a serious incident though?  There certainly have been fatalities in groups of cyclists, ...

If very occasionally we kill ourselves (or people die in the course of, like on L2B last year) that is a matter amongst us to a large extent.
If by being too fast, too large a group or not obeying the rules of the road due to "racing" some not involved is hurt then it becomes an external issue, as Giropaul's example suggests. As you say the chances of hurting a car occupant is small, but someone crossing a road being hit or a car being forced off the road is more plausible when large groups of cyclists misbehave.

[Martin]

4000 riders sounds big but how many were actually on the road at a time?

I was passed by a (1200 rider apparently) sportive a few weeks ago; there were no more than a dozen riders in a bunch at a time. So it's up to us to control it.

Road races that I've seen are a lot more disruptive; with as a really bad example marshalls who think it's perfectly OK to park their motorcycle across the road blocking the entire carriageway both ways whilst awaiting a pass by the bunch
(several times on the same lap)

[Bianchi Boy]

I know that I have contributed to a thread I should not have read because of my argument but here goes -

Sportive riders think they are in a race so behave like it.
Audax riders have a different point of reference and find the racing ethic annoying and pointless

We can muse all we like but it isn't going to change.

BB

[Double J]

On the subject of the gels; maybe the organisers could provide bins by the marshalls and/or insist that riders return as many packets as they went out with, or no finishing position is awarded.  I can see why people don't want to carry a sticky empty gel pouch (the damn things should be banned outside pro events IMO since they're such a temptation to litter), but there are ways round this, such as carrying a small freezer bag to put the remains in.

Disclaimer: I was given a gel once by a fellow rider on the Dun Run and it tasted vile.

Having ridden the dragon and peeved with hour wait to start and timing issues.

One of the things the organisers got sorted was the clean up operation at the feed stations, living in Porthcawl I rode past Cosy Corner feed station on way home about 3pm and the place was spotless, portable toilets had also gone into hyperspace. WELL DONE

[giropaul]

What exactly do you mean by a serious incident though?  There certainly have been fatalities in groups of cyclists, ...

If very occasionally we kill ourselves (or people die in the course of, like on L2B last year) that is a matter amongst us to a large extent.
If by being too fast, too large a group or not obeying the rules of the road due to "racing" some not involved is hurt then it becomes an external issue, as Giropaul's example suggests. As you say the chances of hurting a car occupant is small, but someone crossing a road being hit or a car being forced off the road is more plausible when large groups of cyclists misbehave.

And that is exactly what I mean. I'm not trying to present a reasoned argument about risks, I'm trying to present the argument that the popular press will make if and when someone not involved in the cycling is hurt (it's not about motorists etc, it's about 3rd party implications); that will be picked up by an MP out to raise a profile, and that will result in legislation. We may feel that we have some moral high ground, but that won't matter.
The police are already writing to cycling clubs in the Surrey Hills area. The wording is very measured and helpful, but the message is clear, sort out the group riding or we'll have to sort it out for you.

[LiamFitz]

I guess there's loads of people who are saying stuff about the special ethos of audax but could it just be a function of size.

If you're on a 4,000 rider event it could feel a bit anonymous compared to a friendly event of 100 or so riders and few volunteers from the local WI knocking out cake.

[mattc]

I guess there's loads of people who are saying stuff about the special ethos of audax but could it just be a function of size.

If you're on a 4,000 rider event it could feel a bit anonymous compared to a friendly event of 100 or so riders and few volunteers from the local WI knocking out cake.

You certainly lose some 'ethos' as events get bigger, but bigger and commercial are different things.

Riding LEL (which was 10 times bigger than most Audaxes, but 1/10th of the Dragon/Etape) felt like a tour between village halls staffed with WI volunteers. PBP is obviously huge and impersonal, but you could very much feel the love at controls, and from spectators on the streets.

Taking cake from a smiling volunteer vs
grabbing a gel from a box while a rent-a-marshall in Hiviz checks his watch for hometime.

[+ n Billion shades inbetween ]

[Manotea]

4000 riders sounds big but how many were actually on the road at a time?

I was passed by a (1200 rider apparently) sportive a few weeks ago; there were no more than a dozen riders in a bunch at a time.

That's the audax experience, where a group of half a dozen is exceptional and most are effectively riding solo but it seems that's not what Sportives are about. A Dragon Rider was telling me of moving between pelotons of up to 100 riders, riding flat out, 'You don't get that on Audax'.

Sounds lethal to me. As noted upthread, one major incident involving say a bunch descending through the surrey hills and causing an RTA with multi fatalities amongst bike riders and car occupants, and the outcry will force a response. Sadly it's only a matter of time. Let's hope the AUK recipe of non-competiveness / private excusion will offer some protection.

[Martin]

A Dragon Rider was telling me of moving between pelotons of up to 100 riders, riding flat out, 'You don't get that on Audax'.

Sounds lethal to me.

The Vatternrundan was exactly that; but completely safe. I commend the ride to every AUK rider to see just how different and enjoyable (inna completely different stylee) a 300km event can be