Author Topic: Tactile (ribbed) paving  (Read 3529 times)

A V Lowe

Tactile (ribbed) paving
« on: July 14, 2011, 03:38:04 pm »
Earlier postings started on Vertical Discrepancies - specifically on the use of the wrong profile of ribbed tramline paving and its use too close to corners/poorly drained, all causing the tyres of cycles to be deflected and the cyclists crash.

Correct profile is no higher than 6mm domed profile and plan view with fully radiussed ends (lozenge shape) sharp angled square ends - not correct type

Spec is also completely perverse as wheelchair and pram users will cross to cycle side because they find longitudonal ridges more comfortable and transverse ridges are safer for cyclists - however we have been saddled with this crap decision for around 20 years, and it will be hard to change things around now.

A V Lowe

Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2011, 11:12:38 pm »
Just dug up the early spec with this classic 'reason' for putting ribs parallel to the cyclists' direction of travel

On the pedestrian side, the surface should be installed with the bars running transversely across
the direction of travel (Figure 29).

On the cyclist side, the surface should be laid with the bars running in the direction of travel
(Figure 29 ).
This arrangement was chosen because it was felt the rumble effect created by the transverse pattern
would deter cyclists from entering on the pedestrian side.
  It was thought????

Did anyone consider the fact that wheelchair and pram users would also have a greater discomfort running over transverse ribs, and cyclists might get their wheels knocked sideways with parallel ones??

Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2011, 03:09:34 pm »
... This arrangement was chosen because it was felt the rumble effect created by the transverse pattern
would deter cyclists from entering on the pedestrian side.
  It was thought?????  ...

A fairly typical approach to thinking on cycle "facilities", although obviously with far further reaching ramifications than the average features put into to aid cyclists which can be just be ignored and/or not used (such as the blue painted CSs, which don't appear to provide much to help the average cyclists, but don't really do much to their disadvantage either, excepting to waste of money which could have been usefully spent on something which was helpful).
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

Andrij

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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2011, 03:32:16 pm »
Do the specs not specify what type of tactile paving should be used?

I recall seeing somewhere that on cycle lanes, as they are placed parallel to direction of travel, they should be flat - not rounded - ribs.  Flat ones are bad enough, but the rounded ones are damn near lethal!

I ask because I know of two places where the rounded ribbed paving is used, one area being the Greenway.  Specifically the bit of the Greenway recently redone in preparation for the Olympics.  :facepalm:
 
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Biggsy

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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2011, 03:38:41 pm »
Did anyone consider the fact that wheelchair and pram users would also have a greater discomfort running over transverse ribs, and cyclists might get their wheels knocked sideways with parallel ones??

That would require a few brain cells.  No brains are involved in the designing of cycle and pedestrian farcilities.

Ribbing needs to be scrapped altogether - except for rumble strips on road, perhaps.
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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2011, 08:40:06 pm »
Ribbing needs to be scrapped altogether - except for rumble strips on road, perhaps.

Interestingly, whereas some bit of my commute, like the cycle path across Tooting Bec Common, is a relatively new cycle path, and has the ribbed paviors at most of the locations that they're supposed to be, the path across Clapham Common which was relaid and generally buggered about with, only last year, doesn't have any.  They did put some rather half assed "speed bumps" in, which they had to remove and relay flatter against the path, because they were stupidly proud of the surface, but at least they're across the path, so not a problem in the way that the ribbed paviors are (it has other issues, but it's not the worst cycle path in the world, by a long way!)
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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2011, 09:46:44 pm »
We have done this one before and, as I recall, it all got a bit heated.
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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2011, 09:56:56 pm »
What was the disagreement?
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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2011, 10:09:14 pm »
ISTR we were seen to be selfishly ignoring the needs of blind people.
Never tell me the odds.

rr

Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2011, 10:20:47 pm »
We have a lot of these on our estate, some of them on bends - is there a design standard?

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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2011, 10:30:21 pm »
Is the knobby sort not good enough for blind people?

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clarion

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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2011, 10:32:21 pm »
Different surfaces mean different things.  Stupid idiots getting it wrong make life much more dangerous for blind people than a pavement without any texture.
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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2011, 10:38:02 pm »
If the ribbing is genuinely useful for blind people then I don't mind simply avoiding it when on two wheels.  It's not difficult.
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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2011, 11:40:39 pm »
If the ribbing is genuinely useful for blind people then I don't mind simply avoiding it when on two wheels.  It's not difficult.

Well, that depends a lot on how it's been installed.

If it's manufactured correctly, and the right style is used, in the correct locations, then it should be OK, although as mentioned earlier on in the thread, the actual styles chosen seem to show a lack of forethought.

If it's across a cycle path from one side to the other (which is how it's supposed to be installed), then it's difficult to avoid, without ether crossing into the pedestrian path (if possible), or leaving the cycle path possibly off the a kerb into the road, or onto a grassed area.  Since the paviors are often at there most slippery, and dangerous, during rain, then grass tends to be muddy and slippery, and not exactly ideally suited to cycling on with narrow high pressure tyres.

And regardless that the designs are supposed to be designed to cycle over, many of the ones which I've used are verging on being lethally slippery when wet.

It's not that people feel averse to facilities being installed to improve things for those with compromised vision, but that all too often, as with many cycling facilities, the implementation is poor.

(...and to be fair, this sort of instance isn't exactly unique to cyclists.  I know various paviors placed where pedestrians will be walking over them, which are slippery and dangerous for pedestrians when wet, and it's not as though we haven't had centuries of placing such things.  Why do people manage to manufacture, and use, paviors which are clearly not suitable for their purpose?).
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

clarion

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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2011, 09:30:34 am »
That last plea is a valid one, and maybe deserves another thread.  There are so many surface treatments which I cannot believe the designers don't realise make it really dangerous for us and others.
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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2011, 09:42:25 am »
I've never yet found any ribbed pavement to be difficult to avoid (even if that means cycling where I'm not supposed to), but of course I'd rather ribbed paving wasn't used.  It's potentially a problem for cyclists however it's aligned - when it comes to cyclist joining the path from an angle, for example.

Presumably blind people have been consulted - via the RNIB?  Do they have any better ideas that would be a reasonable compromise for everyone?
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sas

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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2011, 12:49:46 pm »
Is tactile paving designed to be "safe" to cycle across within a certain speed range and if so what is that range? Or are speeds irrelevant?
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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2011, 12:55:42 pm »
Can we have some pictures, because I've no idea what people are on about  ???

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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2011, 01:01:39 pm »
Is tactile paving designed to be "safe" to cycle across within a certain speed range and if so what is that range? Or are speeds irrelevant?

Speeds may be mentioned in the guidelines for designing cycle paths in general.

I reckon you're less likely to loose control on longitudinally ribbed pavement (or any poor surface) at high speed than low speed.  Then the section is over with before the bike has had a chance to get much squiffy.
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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2011, 01:03:47 pm »
Is tactile paving designed to be "safe" to cycle across within a certain speed range and if so what is that range? Or are speeds irrelevant?

I don't think cycling over it was actually considered when the design brief was drawn up :(

In practical terms I would suggest that there's more likely to be a safe minimum speed. If you are going fast enough you tend to recover from any tramline induced wobble as long as you have a clear and straight run in and exit. Having to manoeuvre as you go in or out is lethal.

Looking at it another way - perhaps we could say that the maximum safe cycle crossing speed for some of these is 0 mph.  ???

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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2011, 01:04:44 pm »
Can we have some pictures, because I've no idea what people are on about  ???

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Biggsy

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Re: Tactile (ribbed) paving
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2011, 01:09:21 pm »
This is going to sound harsh, but the best way for cyclists to learn about dangerous surfaces is learn from experience by slipping over.  I just hope that enough people can do it in their youth when their bones will bounce rather than break.

It's all very good to ask that facilities are made safe, but there will always be hazards on cycling surfaces - whether part of the design or not.
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