Rugby World Cup 2011

[PeteB99]

I don't normally get involved in Rugby discussions but in view of the collective disaproval upthread of the referees decision to send off the Welsh player did anyone else hear the R4? interview with the player a day or so ago saying that in hindsight he thought the referee was correct?

[Wowbagger]

Yes I did, and my immediate thought was "Sensible lad! You've got at least 10 years ahead of you in international rugby and the last thing you need is a reputation as a whinger who will upset referees for years to come." He may well be of that opinion, but he'd be bloody stupid to say anything else.

[LEE]

Possibly a bit harsh. £25k may be a week's pin money for foopballers but it's real money for a rugby player. And foopballers can hardly claim the moral high ground when it comes to off-the-pitch behaviour.

d.

He is the Queen's grandson though (sort of) so he could sell a Crown or Sceptre to pay the fine.

[Cyclops]

Rob Andrew's job description seems to vary with how well things are going. If England are playing well he seems to claim to be responsible for decisions, management, etc. , if England play badly it's nothing to do with him and all the manager's fault

[spesh]

Rob Andrew's job description seems to vary with how well things are going. If England are playing well he seems to claim to be responsible for decisions, management, etc. , if England play badly it's nothing to do with him and all the manager's fault

See Wow's/Psychler's post just upthread:

In one article, I read that Rob Andrew was described as "teflon coated" and still maintains a high profile at Twickers. Does he get involved in coaching or is he just a backroom wheeler-dealer?

Although he doesn't get involved in coaching, he is described as "Johnson's boss" and he himself stated that the England team are about "1/5 of his responsibilities".  He is "in charge of the professional game".  Nobody, however, seems to know exactly what his job spec is, including his masters at the RFU

His job title and description is éminence grease (sic) - the power behind the throne to whom nothing will stick. 

[citoyen]

Changing the subject back to dangerous tackles, would be interested to know what the more experienced players of the game make of Schalk Brits's spectacular dumping of a Treviso player in Sunday's Heineken Cup game. He got sin-binned at the time and has just been given a three-week ban. It's at the 2.00 mark in this clip:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/H4JrPvq4G6M&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/H4JrPvq4G6M&rel=1</a>

It's one of those that probably looks worse than it is, but surely in today's game it should have been a straight red? I say this as a fan of Saracens generally, and Schalk Brits in particular, who I think is a superb player. It's at least as bad as Sam Warburton's red card tackle.

d.

[Psychler]

It's one of those that probably looks worse than it is, but surely in today's game it should have been a straight red? I say this as a fan of Saracens generally, and Schalk Brits in particular, who I think is a superb player. It's at least as bad as Sam Warburton's red card tackle.

Yep, different in execution but same principle [as far as I can see]. 

The award of three weeks indicates the disciplinary panel thought that it also deserved straight red.

[Wowbagger]

In some ways it surprised me that England selected him as their manager when he had no previous managerial experience. It simply doesn't follow that your best player will automatically metamorphose into a good coach / manager and I'm sure they had some other lower-profile characters who would have had better chances than Johnson. However, they gambled with him and lost, and to a degree I think that this is down to media pressure: England were pretty dire in the World Cup and they can hardly complain that this was as a result of lack of preparation. In addition, if you are prepared to take the advertisers' cash in the run-up to the event (I'm thinking of the Times supplement which I found completely laughable and mentioned somewhere upthread) you can't really complain so much when things go wrong.

In one article, I read that Rob Andrew was described as "teflon coated" and still maintains a high profile at Twickers. Does he get involved in coaching or is he just a backroom wheeler-dealer?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/20/clive-woodward-rfu-laughing-stock
 

[mcshroom]

The suits in shirts have been a laughing stock for years - they make the FA look competent.

[Psychler]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/20/clive-woodward-rfu-laughing-stock
 

Woodward said he would prefer an English coach to get the job, naming Jim Mallinder, Richard Cockerill, Toby Booth, Conor O'Shea, Neil Back and Mark McCall as contenders, and suggesting Alex King and Mike Catt should come into consideration. "An English coach would know the country and the culture," he said. "England have so many coaches, so many resources – if so enormous a rugby country cannot produce a contender, what does that say about rugby here and our coaching development programmes?"

English???  Conor O'Shea, Mark McCall, Mike Catt???

Personally, I think the dream team is Ian McGeechan [at least he was born in England - head coach/manager], Jim Mallinder [attack], Dean Ryan [forwards] and Mike Ford [defence], with part timers Dave Alred [kicking] and Graham Rowntree [scrum]

[Wowbagger]

I agree with you about itinerant coaches. It's my view that the nationality of players and coaches should be more strictly controlled than it is at present. I'm pleased that Wales have done well under Warren Gatland but I'd have preferred it if they had had a Welshman in charge. Similarly, I wonder how good a player Johnson would have become without his New Zealand experience - and the fact that he played for the NZ u21s. To me, once a player with two (or more) possible national teams to play for under the rules, he should stick to that nationality.

[Jaded]

Like in real life, where people aren't allowed to emigrate 

[Jaded]

Wouldn't that effectively mean that an immigrant couldn't play international rugby though?

[Cudzoziemiec]

Doesn't UEFA already have rules limiting the number of foreign players in football teams? Is there anything similar in rugby?

For national teams, people have always found a way to bend the rules when they want to. Citizenship is usually pretty clear cut, nationality is not.

[Psychler]

The current situation is that you can play international rugby for a country on the grounds of birth, residency [3 years I believe] or parental or grand-parental rights.

Thus the current crop of internationals Manu Tuilagi, George North, Quade Cooper, Matt Stephens, Dylan hartley, Luke Charteris, one of the Franks brothers [etc] all play for countries they were not born in.

A few years back the situation was a lot looser with Jamie Salmon [NZ + England], Shane Howarth [NZ + Wales] and Frank Bunce [Samoa and NZ] playing for two countries.  This is no longer allowed, once you have elected to play adult international rugby for one country then you may no longer qualify for another.

Also, after the "grannygate" scandal of the early 2000's, qualification has been tightened up.  Before that hardly any checks were made.  I once asked Damien Cronin what was his qualification to play for Scotland.  His answer - "my grand-mother's got a scottie dog".

[citoyen]

Regardless of the moral rights and wrongs of picking players born overseas, I have to wonder how England can ever hope to compete with the likes of New Zealand and South Africa if they have to resort to picking players such as Shontayne Hape or Mouritz Botha who have been rejected as not good enough to play for their country of birth.

On the other hand, I have no problem with England picking Manu Tuilagi, who grew up in England and is therefore just as "English" as any current England player in my book. Plus he's an exceptional talent and deserves to be in the side - certainly ahead of Shontayne Hape.

Also, I can't really think of any English-born-and-raised players in that position who are good enough, which reflects pretty poorly on the state of English rugby. Where's the youth development?

d.

[Psychler]

Also, I can't really think of any English-born-and-raised players in that position who are good enough, which reflects pretty poorly on the state of English rugby. Where's the youth development?

George Ford [IRB young player of the year], Rory Clegg, Jonny May, Henry Trinder, Charlie Sharples, Joe Marler, James Gaskell, Owen Farrell, Alex Goode, Dave Attwood, Matt Mullan, Jordan Turner-Hall  etc etc etc.

There's plenty of young players [born in England] to choose from who are up there with the likes of Hape

[Psychler]

.......... Shontayne Hape or Mouritz Botha who have been rejected as not good enough to play for their country of birth.
d.

Not really correct as Hape came from rugby league [played for NZ in league] and Botha has played most of his rugby in England.  Neither has ever been considered for their country of birth, let alone been rejected.

I think there's just as big an issue with succesive coaches looking at rugby league players [irrespective of nationality] and thinking that they will make quality internationals.  Very few make the standard and vice versa [they are two completely different games].  Jason Robinson and Chris Ashtons are the exceptions but look at Lesley Vainakolo, Andy Farrell, Barrie-Jon Mather, Henry and Robbie Paul, Iestyn Harris etc who have all crossed from league but not made a great impact on union. 

[Jaded]

Where's the youth development?

On their XBoxes

[citoyen]

There's plenty of young players [born in England] to choose from who are up there with the likes of Hape

OK, I should have phrased that differently - I couldn't think of any off the top of my head but that's clearly not the same as there not being any - though I meant specifically for that position rather than generally...

I know there's some flexibility in the backs but aren't the roles more specialised at that level? Owen Farrell definitely should be playing for England, but I'd have thought he's vying for Tindall/Wilkinson's place rather than Hape/Tuilagi's position. Same goes for George Ford & Alex Goode - definitely should be contenders for England, but in different positions, surely? (Genuine question - I'm happy to bow to the superior knowledge of others on this matter.)

Charlie Sharples and Jordan Turner-Hall seem strong candidates from what I know of them. As for the rest, I'll have to plead ignorance. Are any of them both good enough and playing for their club (in that position) regularly enough to push Hape out of the reckoning?

d.

[citoyen]

Not really correct as Hape came from rugby league [played for NZ in league] and Botha has played most of his rugby in England.  Neither has ever been considered for their country of birth, let alone been rejected.

I'm not sure what the distinction is. Are you saying Botha has been overlooked by SA purely because he plays in England rather than in SA? Would he be good enough to play for SA? Is he even good enough to play for England?

I actually thought Hape had been rejected by NZ, but could easily be mistaken on that.

I think there's just as big an issue with succesive coaches looking at rugby league players [irrespective of nationality] and thinking that they will make quality internationals.

I'm sure there's something in that. I don't watch much League but it doesnt' take an expert to see that they're completely different games. (I do enjoy League when I watch it though didn't enjoy England's pasting yesterday all that much - good game and the scoreline not entirely fair on England but still a pasting whichever way you look at it.)

d.

[Psychler]

Obviously there's a lot of debate about positions / selection etc but I'd like to see Englands back line in the 6 Nations along the lines of:-

 9] Ben Youngs
10] George Ford
11] Chris Ashton
12] Owen Farrell [Saracens have lately been playing him at centre]
13] Manu Tuilagi
14] Charlie Sharples
15] Ben Foden

The oldest amongst them would be Ben Foden at 26, this could mean that the same set of backs go into the next world cup final with at least 30 caps each.

[Cyclops]

There's plenty of young players [born in England] to choose from who are up there with the likes of Hape

Under Johnson's reign the prime (and possibly only looking at some of the selections) criteria for playing in the centre was being large. Now he's gone will we see the likes of Cipriani, Barkley and Tait in the backs again? Hopefully not, it'll make you a lot harder to beat

[citoyen]

Obviously there's a lot of debate about positions / selection etc but I'd like to see Englands back line in the 6 Nations along the lines of:-

I would be very happy to see that back line turning out for England.

d.

[Psychler]

I'm not sure what the distinction is. Are you saying Botha has been overlooked by SA purely because he plays in England rather than in SA? Would he be good enough to play for SA? Is he even good enough to play for England?

Botha played for Bedford Athetic and then Bedford Blues before joining Saracens in 2008 [I think].  He's only really developed as a player in the last couple of years and I don't think he's ever been on the international horizon from SA's point of view.  Whether that's because he's playing in England or not considered good enough I have no idea.

I don't think he'll add too many more England caps to the one he's collected, but that's just my personal opinion