Rugby World Cup 2011

[citoyen]

Now he's gone will we see the likes of Cipriani, Barkley and Tait in the backs again? Hopefully not, it'll make you a lot harder to beat

I thought Barkley and Tait were out through long-term injury rather than not being considered good enough. As for Cipriani... he's the new Gavin Henson, isn't he?

d.

[Psychler]

Now he's gone will we see the likes of Cipriani, Barkley and Tait in the backs again? Hopefully not, it'll make you a lot harder to beat

I thought Barkley and Tait were out through long-term injury rather than not being considered good enough. As for Cipriani... he's the new Gavin Henson, isn't he?

d.

Barkley and Tait have both just returned to playing.  Cipriani has recently been dropped by Melbourne for off pitch disciplinary reasons

[RJ]

Now he's gone will we see the likes of Cipriani, Barkley and Tait in the backs again? Hopefully not, it'll make you a lot harder to beat

I thought Barkley and Tait were out through long-term injury rather than not being considered good enough. As for Cipriani... he's the new Gavin Henson, isn't he?

d.

Barkley and Tait have both just returned to playing.  Cipriani has recently been dropped by Melbourne for off pitch disciplinary reasons

QED 

[Wowbagger]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/23/england-world-cup-fiasco-leaked-report

Ouch! That really is damning stuff. Worst of all is the fact that the supporters have been conned. So much for the advantages of a "professional" game.

[Cudzoziemiec]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/23/england-world-cup-fiasco-leaked-report

Ouch! That really is damning stuff. Worst of all is the fact that the supporters have been conned. So much for the advantages of a "professional" game.

There were also accusations that senior colleagues indulged in drinking games and poked fun at those who committed wholeheartedly to training.

But still the traditionalists aren't happy!

[her_welshness]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/23/england-world-cup-fiasco-leaked-report

Ouch! That really is damning stuff. Worst of all is the fact that the supporters have been conned. So much for the advantages of a "professional" game.

Some very damning comments about the various coaches, especially Brian Smith.

[Wowbagger]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/25/rugby-union-rob-andrew

More horror-story material. It's this sort of stuff that turns me off watching sport. Fupballers are legendary with their appalling behaviour, in which even the so called "nice guy" of premiership football feels it appropriate to take out a superinjunction to hide his misdemeanours; cricketers are sent to jail for match-fixing; and now rugby players are involved in this sort of stuff.

Can I have my 1970s rose-tinted spectacles back please?

[Psychler]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/25/rugby-union-rob-andrew

More horror-story material. It's this sort of stuff that turns me off watching sport. Fupballers are legendary with their appalling behaviour, in which even the so called "nice guy" of premiership football feels it appropriate to take out a superinjunction to hide his misdemeanours; cricketers are sent to jail for match-fixing; and now rugby players are involved in this sort of stuff.

Can I have my 1970s rose-tinted spectacles back please?

The whole thing started because a few players went for a drink, the press got hold of it and its gone into a spin. 

And as usual, the 57 old farts at HQ panic as they want to bury bad news; they think the only way out is to try and cover up a non-story.  Everything escalates from there.

I haven't seen the Irish team going into meltdown - they were in the same bar.

Wow - the 70's?   Keith Murdoch, Willie Anderson in jail in Argentina, British Lions hotel wreckers............

[Wowbagger]

That's why I asked for the rose-tinted spectacles. I genuinely don't remember the incidents you mention but I strongly suspected that similar incidents took place.

I remember the Lions under John Dawes beating the All Blacks and under Willie-John McBride beating SA (o tour, P22, W21, D1, L0) and being cheered on by crowds of black people while the whites gnashed their teeth.

[Psychler]

That's why I asked for the rose-tinted spectacles. I genuinely don't remember the incidents you mention but I strongly suspected that similar incidents took place.

I remember the Lions under John Dawes beating the All Blacks and under Willie-John McBride beating SA (o tour, P22, W21, D1, L0) and being cheered on by crowds of black people while the whites gnashed their teeth.

Point taken about the specs but I think it was much, much worse back then. 

Keith Murdoch was sent home from a NZ tour to Wales after a fight with a Cardiff bouncer [he stopped off in the outback of Australia and never actually went back to NZ. There was a play written about him "Finding Keith Murdoch"]

Willie Anderson "souvenired" an Argentinian flag and ended up in jail for three months.

The 74 Lions were notorious.  After they set a fire in one of their hotel rooms, Willie John McBride had to see off the police, dressed in his y-fronts and smoking a pipe.

I forgot about Colin Smart being stomach pumped after drinking a bottle of aftershave after a match in Paris.

And Gareth Edwards and the boot money scandal etc etc etc.

The antics of the current England squad are very poor imitations of these events.  The bigger problem is how archaic the RFU are, too much in-fighting.

[Cudzoziemiec]

This is what I was getting at earlier when I said

There were also accusations that senior colleagues indulged in drinking games and poked fun at those who committed wholeheartedly to training.

But still the traditionalists aren't happy!

Getting drunk and causing mayhem is traditionally what rugby players do. "A game for gentlemen, played by hooligans."

[Psychler]

Getting drunk and causing mayhem is traditionally what rugby players do. "A game for gentlemen, played by hooligans."

Actually ..... "Football is a game for gentlemen, played by hooligans; rugby is a game for hooligans, played by gentlemen"

Sorry, had to be pedantic!

[Cudzoziemiec]

A little google shows you're right and I was back to front. Still, that just shows that it's rugby itself which turns gentlemen into hooligans who trash hotels, drink aftershave, and so on!

[Wowbagger]

It's not rugby - it's their background! England rugby players are traditionally from the public schools. It's just the Bullingdon Club but with a collar size of 18".

I always thought the "boot money" was a way of levelling the playing field: the English clubs tended to be well supported by big business and the players were well looked after, the Welsh clubs tended to be community-oriented and many of their players were from a very working-class background. That last sentence was, of course, a very sweeping statement, of course, but I think there's quite a bit of truth in it.

Curiously, the great Welsh team of the 1970s was also rather class-stratified: the miners and steel workers tended towards the scrum whereas the doctors, teachers and other graduates tended towards the backs! Obvious exceptions: Phil Bennett was a steel worker, Terry Cobner a teacher (again, from memory).

[Psychler]

It's not rugby - it's their background! England rugby players are traditionally from the public schools. It's just the Bullingdon Club but with a collar size of 18".

There is an element of truth in the "England players are from public schools" perception, as traditionally rugby was played in them whereas football was played in state schools.  But I don't think that's the reason for the behaviour. 

For every James Haskell [who went to public school] there's an Andy Powell [who didn't], who was banned for drink driving a golf buggy down the M4 and lost his Wasps contract after a brawl in a bar.

I don't think Mick Skinner, Jeff Probyn, Mike Teague, Jason Leonard etc went to public school

[Psychler]

I always thought the "boot money" was a way of levelling the playing field: the English clubs tended to be well supported by big business and the players were well looked after, the Welsh clubs tended to be community-oriented and many of their players were from a very working-class background. That last sentence was, of course, a very sweeping statement, of course, but I think there's quite a bit of truth in it.

Curiously, the great Welsh team of the 1970s was also rather class-stratified: the miners and steel workers tended towards the scrum whereas the doctors, teachers and other graduates tended towards the backs! Obvious exceptions: Phil Bennett was a steel worker, Terry Cobner a teacher (again, from memory).

There were a lot of brewery reps as well [Phil Bennett became one]. 

Barry John was once asked why he hadn't turned to professional rugby league and replied "I can't afford to".  This was after he had controversally moved from Llanelli to Cardiff.

I don't think the payments were anything to do with levelling the playing fields with English clubs, it was more to do with stopping the drain of players to Rugby League and to other Welsh clubs. 

[Steph]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/25/rugby-union-rob-andrew

More horror-story material. It's this sort of stuff that turns me off watching sport. Fupballers are legendary with their appalling behaviour, in which even the so called "nice guy" of premiership football feels it appropriate to take out a superinjunction to hide his misdemeanours; cricketers are sent to jail for match-fixing; and now rugby players are involved in this sort of stuff.

Can I have my 1970s rose-tinted spectacles back please?

Hang on...chamber maid makes allegation that rugby players were a bit raunchy. Allegation specifically quotes them as using a VERY local phrase that I had to have explained to me. Players are in a world cup that the home nation is determined to win, and she is a local. RFU tries to get players to pay out for a cover-up. Players refuse on the grounds of claimed innocence.

All those are facts. Assumption of guilt by any of the parties is rather previous.

[Tewdric]

there's an Andy Powell [who didn't]

He actually went to the rather excellent, and most definitely private, Llandovery College.

Curiously, the great Welsh team of the 1970s was also rather class-stratified

It was profession-stratified, but class has never meant anything on the sports fields of Wales as far as I can tell. 

<edit>

I occasionally get called a posh tw*t by some of my team mates at Chepstow RFC and I call them a f**ing neanderthal back, then we just get on with having a good time together.  It's how much graft you put in on the field that determines what people think of you in Welsh rugby.

[Steph]

there's an Andy Powell [who didn't]

He actually went to the rather excellent, and most definitely private, Llandovery College.

Curiously, the great Welsh team of the 1970s was also rather class-stratified

It was profession-stratified, but class has never meant anything on the sports fields of Wales as far as I can tell.

By class, do you mean silver spoon or ability? 

Or divinity, in that anecdote about Mr John and the tide...

[Psychler]

there's an Andy Powell [who didn't]

He actually went to the rather excellent, and most definitely private, Llandovery College.

Yes, but is that a "public" school.

My comment withdrawn, I never realised he was a stuck up twat 

[Psychler]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2011/nov/25/rugby-union-rob-andrew

More horror-story material. It's this sort of stuff that turns me off watching sport. Fupballers are legendary with their appalling behaviour, in which even the so called "nice guy" of premiership football feels it appropriate to take out a superinjunction to hide his misdemeanours; cricketers are sent to jail for match-fixing; and now rugby players are involved in this sort of stuff.

Can I have my 1970s rose-tinted spectacles back please?

Hang on...chamber maid makes allegation that rugby players were a bit raunchy. Allegation specifically quotes them as using a VERY local phrase that I had to have explained to me. Players are in a world cup that the home nation is determined to win, and she is a local. RFU tries to get players to pay out for a cover-up. Players refuse on the grounds of claimed innocence.

All those are facts. Assumption of guilt by any of the parties is rather previous.

And ... apparently.... the whole incident was filmed by Haskell [who was doing a fly on the wall documentary - presumably that won't be made now] which was why he was found not guilty and the other two fined for their comments.

[Psychler]

It's not rugby - it's their background! England rugby players are traditionally from the public schools. It's just the Bullingdon Club but with a collar size of 18".

I always thought the "boot money" was a way of levelling the playing field: the English clubs tended to be well supported by big business and the players were well looked after, the Welsh clubs tended to be community-oriented and many of their players were from a very working-class background. That last sentence was, of course, a very sweeping statement, of course, but I think there's quite a bit of truth in it.

Curiously, the great Welsh team of the 1970s was also rather class-stratified: the miners and steel workers tended towards the scrum whereas the doctors, teachers and other graduates tended towards the backs! Obvious exceptions: Phil Bennett was a steel worker, Terry Cobner a teacher (again, from memory).

After a bit of googling, I've come up with the following.  Of the Welsh players who went on the British Lions tour in 1971, seven went to university, one had a manual job [Chico Hopkins - scrum half - was a "fitter] and four had unlisted occupations.  Of these four, three played for London Welsh - no mines or steel works in London.

Of other Welsh players of the era, Bobby Windsor and Charlie Faulkener were steelworkers and Peter Morgan was a coal merchant but Graham Price went to UWIST and was a civil engineer, Trefor Evans was an estate agent whilst Allan Martin, Clive Shell JJ Williams, Terry Cobner, Stuart Lane, Elgin Rees, Dai Richards, Gareth Davies, Jeff Squire, Gareth Williams, Clive Rees and Jeff Young were all teachers.

Obviously some occupations are unlisted but the only miner I can find is Glyn Shaw [prop for Neath]

Of a comparable England team:- Bob Hiller, Mike Slemen, Alan Old, Fran Cotton, Roger Uttley, Peter Squires, Peter Dixon, John Spencer - teachers, John Pullin, Stack Stevens - farmers, Tony Neary - solicitor, Nigel Horton - policeman, Andy Ripley, David Duckham - bankers, Peter Larter was in the RAF

Sorry, had some time on my hands

[Psychler]

Just received this by e-mail, Willie is the RFU President

"Gentlemen and Lady

I had thought that we would wait until after the Council meeting to put the Slaughter and May report on the RFU website. However, I have just been made aware that a PDF copy has been created and already sent to some Clubs.

The report is not a confidential document and I am sure that many Council Members will want to begin to consult with their CB Colleagues and Clubs on its content as soon as possible.

The report itself recommends that the RFU puts it on its website so I have therefore decided that it would be pragmatic to do this now. This will then allow all of our CBs and Clubs to have sight of it.

The link to the relevant RFU web page is:

http://www.rfu.com/AboutTheRFU/Slaughter_May.aspx

I propose to do this immediately and to also place it on the RFU intranet to allow our staff to see it too.

Best wishes

Willie."

[Cudzoziemiec]

It's not rugby - it's their background! England rugby players are traditionally from the public schools. It's just the Bullingdon Club but with a collar size of 18".

I always thought the "boot money" was a way of levelling the playing field: the English clubs tended to be well supported by big business and the players were well looked after, the Welsh clubs tended to be community-oriented and many of their players were from a very working-class background. That last sentence was, of course, a very sweeping statement, of course, but I think there's quite a bit of truth in it.

Curiously, the great Welsh team of the 1970s was also rather class-stratified: the miners and steel workers tended towards the scrum whereas the doctors, teachers and other graduates tended towards the backs! Obvious exceptions: Phil Bennett was a steel worker, Terry Cobner a teacher (again, from memory).

After a bit of googling, I've come up with the following.  Of the Welsh players who went on the British Lions tour in 1971, seven went to university, one had a manual job [Chico Hopkins - scrum half - was a "fitter] and four had unlisted occupations.  Of these four, three played for London Welsh - no mines or steel works in London.

Of other Welsh players of the era, Bobby Windsor and Charlie Faulkener were steelworkers and Peter Morgan was a coal merchant but Graham Price went to UWIST and was a civil engineer, Trefor Evans was an estate agent whilst Allan Martin, Clive Shell JJ Williams, Terry Cobner, Stuart Lane, Elgin Rees, Dai Richards, Gareth Davies, Jeff Squire, Gareth Williams, Clive Rees and Jeff Young were all teachers.

Obviously some occupations are unlisted but the only miner I can find is Glyn Shaw [prop for Neath]

Of a comparable England team:- Bob Hiller, Mike Slemen, Alan Old, Fran Cotton, Roger Uttley, Peter Squires, Peter Dixon, John Spencer - teachers, John Pullin, Stack Stevens - farmers, Tony Neary - solicitor, Nigel Horton - policeman, Andy Ripley, David Duckham - bankers, Peter Larter was in the RAF

Sorry, had some time on my hands

So the most common occupation for rugby players is teacher. That is the explanation for their bad behaviour. 

[Psychler]

Andy Ripley, David Duckham - bankers

So the most common occupation for rugby players is teacher. That is the explanation for their bad behaviour. 

Don't forget the bankers!!