Sometimes cyclists are the baddies....

[AndyK]

What amazes me is how a number of people on this topic just refuse to recognise quite how bad a minority of cyclists can be.

Speaking for myself I'm sick of reading your anti-cyclist nonsense. Being polite, staying quiet has got UK cyclists how far? Pretty much nowhere, we are harassed and bullied on the roads, and we have people who claim to be pro-cycling whining that we should also get out the way of non-cyclists on cycle lanes.
I've been riding for forty years, and I for one will no longer be 'polite and silent', because it gets us nowhere.

[Wendy]

It's a bit OT from this topic, and my point that I'm not putting cyclists in second place to anyone.  Instead it's about tolerance and sharing, and our responsibilities to others.

No, you were most definitely riding in the door zone.  The comments you deleted were from a number of experienced camera users correctly judging your position in the road, some of whom had specific experience with your own camera.  Taking the lane and staying out of the door zone would have been correctly asserting your priority, and would have prevented that bad driver from left hooking you too.

[AndyK]

It's a bit OT from this topic, and my point that I'm not putting cyclists in second place to anyone.  Instead it's about tolerance and sharing, and our responsibilities to others.

No, you were most definitely riding in the door zone.  The comments you deleted were from a number of experienced camera users correctly judging your position in the road, some of whom had specific experience with your own camera.  Taking the lane and staying out of the door zone would have been correctly asserting your priority, and would have prevented that bad driver from left hooking you too.

I was there, you were not. I was not in the door zone.

As for your point, I don't see it as 'tolerance and sharing', I see it as taking another step back and letting everyone else walk over us. You might be prepared to be a doormat, I'm not.

[Wendy]

Speaking for myself I'm sick of reading your anti-cyclist nonsense. Being polite, staying quiet has got UK cyclists how far? Pretty much nowhere, we are harassed and bullied on the roads, and we have people who claim to be pro-cycling whining that we should also get out the way of non-cyclists on cycle lanes.
I've been riding for forty years, and I for one will no longer be 'polite and silent', because it gets us nowhere.

Srsly?  Just remind me, how many Roadsafe reports/company contacts and youtube videos do we each have, respectively, and what does that say about how we both stand up for cyclists' rights?

I'm sorry you don't like what I'm saying, and it's really not a dig at you.  OTOH I think I might feel a little bit more strongly about our responsibilities that go with those rights.

[mattc]

Dear Nutty,
I don't often say this, but:
You need to get a sense of proportion.

Somehow you've leapt from:

"ding dong" from a distance away is much more pleasant than how most cyclists use a bell - DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING. 

To:

I hate bells,

And BTW, have you ever used a traditional bell?


Their standard mode is NOT a single ding; everyone knows the traditional sound these things make, so if you do something different, other RofW users may not register your approach. So leave off the lectures about how many dings constitute rudeness.

Try and rein in the nuttiness, please.

[Biggsy]

What amazes me is how a number of people on this topic just refuse to recognise quite how bad a minority of cyclists can be.

It might have helped if you had picked a stronger article to illustrate your point.  The Guardian one is pathetic.

Of course there are bad cyclists, but not enough bad enough ones to make a big fuss about, IMO.  I'm basing that on what I see.  I cycle at various speeds, so I get to observe all sorts of cyclists doing all the things that cyclists do.  By far the biggest problem is cyclists not taking enough care of themselves.  They're injuring and killing themselves far more than hurting others.  I appreciate that many more should be more friendly polite, but that's not an issue that excites me very much.

People like to moan about cyclists.  It's a national pastime.  It's a classic old chestnut for local radio phone-ins, for example.  Much of it is just not based on reality, IMO.

[teethgrinder]

What amazes me is how a number of people on this topic just refuse to recognise quite how bad a minority of cyclists can be.

Speaking for myself I'm sick of reading your anti-cyclist nonsense. Being polite, staying quiet has got UK cyclists how far? Pretty much nowhere, we are harassed and bullied on the roads, and we have people who claim to be pro-cycling whining that we should also get out the way of non-cyclists on cycle lanes.
I've been riding for forty years, and I for one will no longer be 'polite and silent', because it gets us nowhere.

I don't know what you mean by "anti cycling nonsense." I can't see how letting someone rollerblade in a cycle lane is anti cycling. Isn't it similar to a slow cyclist in the cycle lane? It's not cyclists keeping out of their way, it's just accepting someone else using the cycle lane. I personally have no problem with that, unless they are being a tit, but I generally don't like people being a tit, regardless of whether they are on rollerskates, foot, bicycles or whatever.
You do get tits on bikes who behave like selfish arseholes.
Being polite, curteous and sharing the road/cyclepath just makes life more pleasant and less stressfull. I'll still be rude and aggressive to anyone who is rude and aggressive to me though, or better still find a better way of putting them down a peg or two. I agree that we should stand up to bullies, but I don't think we should become bullies ourselves.
I often come across small kids on foot scooters on my way to work on the cycleways. They're just kids having fun. Where exactly would my being impolite and noisy at these happy kids get me? I can't see any benefit to myself, nor the image of cycling. Why would a kid want to grow up to be an angry cyclist who shouts at little children?
I reckon the fact that the yummy mummies I see every day and their kids feeling safe and relaxed that I wont intimidate, threaten, scare, bully and certainly not injure them or their kids when I cycle past them is much better for cycling than being an intolerent beast full of self importance of people who dare to use anything other than a cycle or their feet on a shared use cycle path. Seeing the kids happily playing is one of the best bits of my very short commute. If I was in that much of a hurry, I'd use the road.

[spindrift]

What amazes me is how a number of people on this topic just refuse to recognise quite how bad a minority of cyclists can be.

It might have helped if you had picked a stronger article to illustrate your point.  The Guardian one is pathetic.

  By far the biggest problem is cyclists not taking enough care of themselves. 

I'd like to see a source for this. I've never seen any such claim backed up by evidence.

[Wendy]

What amazes me is how a number of people on this topic just refuse to recognise quite how bad a minority of cyclists can be.

It might have helped if you had picked a stronger article to illustrate your point.  The Guardian one is pathetic.

Well, that's true enough.  Perhaps it's because it resonates more with me as I have encountered far too many really rude and impatient cyclists, and a few actually dangerous ones. Been ridden into a couple of times in the Park too, though no fault of my own. Both times the cyclist went down heavily and had a bent bike, me no more than bruises. A mate got hit by a cyclist and broke his thumb.  The cyclist hit his head and died almost a week later, I don't believe that was the skater's fault, not according to the rider, the skater, or the police after the rider talked to them (he was conscious for a little while).

Spinners, I do recall seeing a statistic that the most common cyclist crash was a single vehicle one, i.e. all by the cyclist on their own with no-one else involved.  I suspect it's true, though I don't have a link for you.  I'm sure that's even more true for skaters, by perhaps an order of magnitude.  Certainly skate instructor insurance is an order of magnitude more than cycle instructor insurance, which is very cheap indeed.

[spindrift]

Oh, I see, yes, most cycling accidents don't involve other vehicles. With those that include other vehicles the driver's usually at fault.

[Biggsy]

I didn't make myself quite clear.  I'm referring to cyclists injuring or killing pedestrians and skaters compared to getting injured or killed themselves, whether or not anyone else is invloved in the cause.

I'm basically saying that cyclists are more often the victims than the perpetrators of actually dangerous things.

[AndyK]

I can't see how letting someone rollerblade in a cycle lane is anti cycling. Isn't it similar to a slow cyclist in the cycle lane? It's not cyclists keeping out of their way, it's just accepting someone else using the cycle lane.

It is not similar at all. A slow cyclist in the cycle lane is still a cyclist in the cycle lane. A rollerblader should not be in the cycle lane.

[Biggsy]

It is not similar at all. A slow cyclist in the cycle lane is still a cyclist in the cycle lane. A rollerblader should not be in the cycle lane.

What is the problem for you with them being in the cycle lane, and where else do you want them to go?

[teethgrinder]

I can't see how letting someone rollerblade in a cycle lane is anti cycling. Isn't it similar to a slow cyclist in the cycle lane? It's not cyclists keeping out of their way, it's just accepting someone else using the cycle lane.

It is not similar at all. A slow cyclist in the cycle lane is still a cyclist in the cycle lane. A rollerblader should not be in the cycle lane.

I expect that you are technically correct.
I still don't care. Unless they are putting me in danger, I'm happy for them to be on rollerskates, pogo sticks, space hoppers or whatever. In fact, I'd find it mildly entertaining. I can't see what there is to get angry about.

[AndyK]

It is not similar at all. A slow cyclist in the cycle lane is still a cyclist in the cycle lane. A rollerblader should not be in the cycle lane.

What is the problem for you with them being in the cycle lane, and where else do you want them to go?

They are dangerous and unpredictable, they have no brakes. I don't care where they go so long as it isn't in the cycle lane.

[Biggsy]

Brake

[hubner]

They're injuring and killing themselves far more than hurting others.

But it's not whether "bad" cyclists are killing and injuring other road users or not, it's that they just pee people off.

You're walking on the pavement, and a person on a bike comes up silently from behind at 15mph and overtakes right next to you; no one is getting killed or injured but it's not a pleasant experience.

I rarely drive, but one time I overtook a cyclist, I eased off my speed and when there wasn't any oncoming cars I moved slightly to the right and passed with plenty of space, and it wasn't a narrow road, most drivers would have just gone in a straight line.  Then I stopped at the next lights, the same cyclist then jumps the red light and goes onto the pavement to avoid the one way system after the lights. This is a busy High Street area with very narrow pavements and loads of pedestrians around.

Again nobody's died or injured, but even I got a bit peed off and I'm a cyclist!

[mattc]

What is the problem for you with them being in the cycle lane, and where else do you want them to go?

I was wondering this. The only reason I've seen is the "weaving" gait described by Alexb: http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=53184.msg1076606#msg1076606

I can see how that could be a problem, but I don't know how BIG a problem.

I have a horrible feeling this will descend into unquantifiable opinions on how unpredictable/careless/hasty each user group is

[nuttycyclist]

Dear Nutty,
I don't often say this, but:
You need to get a sense of proportion.

Somehow you've leapt from:

"ding dong" from a distance away is much more pleasant than how most cyclists use a bell - DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING DING. 

To:

I hate bells,

And BTW, have you ever used a traditional bell?


Their standard mode is NOT a single ding; everyone knows the traditional sound these things make, so if you do something different, other RofW users may not register your approach. So leave off the lectures about how many dings constitute rudeness.

Try and reign in the nuttiness, please.

Dear mattc, apologies for quoting your post in full but the thread has moved on somewhat while I cooked and ate.

You are right, nuttiness reigned in a little; and I acknowledge that the lecture on rudeness was rudeness itself    Sorry about that.

Yes I have used a traditional bell, and the "ding dong" one I have looks quite similar to your picture.  I suppose the issue isn't so much "the bell" but how the majority of cyclists seem to use them.


I do hate bells.   I hate the intrusion their noise makes on the peace and quiet, I hate how the sudden noise makes me jump out of my skin, I hate being given earfuls when another rider sounds off (see post upthread re my experience on the Humber Bridge), I hate how they alienate the cyclist into "a thing" dinging along as opposed to a human being sharing the great outdoors with other humans, I hate how cyclists seem to think that ding ding = a given right to ride through without slowing down.

I wouldn't be so nutty as to call for a ban on bells, they do have their place and everybody should have a right to ring one.  What I would call for though is for more give and take and for everybody to take care.

As I said upthread, I rarely sound the horn on the car so why should I ring the bell on the bike?    It's much safer, and more pleasant, for all for me to simply ride with care and slow down if necessary.   I walk relatively fast, and on narrow footpaths say "excuse me" if I want to pass somebody else; I take the same attitude when cycling.  Or should I get a town crier's bell for when rambling and ring that when my path is obstructed 

[Biggsy]

Again nobody's died or injured, but even I got a bit peed off and I'm a cyclist!

I know, but would it prompt you to start an anti-cyclists thread or phone a radio station?

In fact I instantly switch off now when I hear people moaning about cyclists on radio or TV - makes me puke - so what am I doing reading this thread?  I shall stop!  I'm out!  See you on the rest of the forum, everyone.

[Wendy]

I was wondering this. The only reason I've seen is the "weaving" gait described by Alexb: http://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=53184.msg1076606#msg1076606

I can see how that could be a problem, but I don't know how BIG a problem.

I have a horrible feeling this will descend into unquantifiable opinions on how unpredictable/careless/hasty each user group is

Here's about the most extreme and biggest you'll see, drafting a Sprinter van:
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/CMUk11Tjtbw&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/CMUk11Tjtbw&rel=1</a>

The problem is that skates generate power by pushing sideways - essentially they are inclined planes that translate lateral force into forwards motion, so need more space than a cyclist takes up.  OTOH it's easy to time your strides and go narrow when you need to pass someone, or someone needs to pass you.

And despite this large sideways space, on crowded rides such as the London to Brighton, skaters can filter through cyclists that can't move anywhere.  Skaters are much more manoeuvrable and can fit through much smaller gaps than cyclists can.  Peaceful and happy co-existence isn't a problem for either side.

[Wendy]

They are dangerous and unpredictable, they have no brakes. I don't care where they go so long as it isn't in the cycle lane.

But that's just your opinion, exactly the same as many car drivers feel about us cyclists.  Can you quote and link a law that says skaters aren't allowed in cycle lanes, or are you just making it up?

[AndyK]

They are dangerous and unpredictable, they have no brakes. I don't care where they go so long as it isn't in the cycle lane.

But that's just your opinion, exactly the same as many car drivers feel about us cyclists.  Can you quote and link a law that says skaters aren't allowed in cycle lanes, or are you just making it up?

Can you quote a law that says they are, or are you just appeasing non-cyclists?

[mattc]

I hate how cyclists seem to think that ding ding = a given right to ride through without slowing down.

I don't see anyone here saying that. So it must be just some cyclists.

I wouldn't be so nutty as to call for a ban on bells, they do have their place  ...

OK, woah, let's just stop there. I think we can all agree on that 

It's much safer, and more pleasant, for all for me to simply ride with care and slow down if necessary.   I walk relatively fast, and on narrow footpaths say "excuse me" if I want to pass somebody else; I take the same attitude when cycling.

It's been said a hundred times - if you do this, there's a 50:50 chance they'll challenge why you haven't got a bell. We can't win!

[Wendy]

They are dangerous and unpredictable, they have no brakes. I don't care where they go so long as it isn't in the cycle lane.

But that's just your opinion, exactly the same as many car drivers feel about us cyclists.  Can you quote and link a law that says skaters aren't allowed in cycle lanes, or are you just making it up?

Can you quote a law that says they are, or are you just appeasing non-cyclists?

I don't need to - the UK is a permissive society.  I win if you can't find said law.  The cycle lane is entirely appropriate for HPVs such as skaters.