Do urban cyclists *actually* need lights?

[citoyen]

Day or night, I frequently have to avoid pedestrians who step out into the road without looking. I never assume a pedestrian has "seen" me, even if they appear to be looking directly at me.

if people did ride and drive in such a way as to be always able to avoid careless/etc pedestrians, there would be no need for anyone ever to look before crossing the road.

That wouldn't be such a bad thing. I'm not averse to the idea that in an urban environment, pedestrians should always have priority.

d.

[woollypigs]

That have worked well on some streets in Denmark and Germany. Shared streets where the pedestrians have priority, with no kerb or markings.

[Cudzoziemiec]

I'm not particularly averse to the idea either, just pointing out that in practice no one does ride or drive like that.

Except perhaps on the streets Woolly's talking about, but I'm not familiar with them.

[drossall]

Addition: if people did ride and drive in such a way as to be always able to avoid careless/etc pedestrians, there would be no need for anyone ever to look before crossing the road.

Well yes, but the idea is that both take care. That way, at least in an ideal world, either can make a mistake and the other will cover.

[citoyen]

Except perhaps on the streets Woolly's talking about, but I'm not familiar with them.

They've started to introduce streets like that in London, funnily enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space#United_Kingdom

d.

[citoyen]

either can make a mistake and the other will cover.

The reason for the onus being on the operator of the faster, heavier vehicle is that it tends to cause more damage when such a mistake is made. A pedestrian will always come off worse in a collision with a car, regardless of whose mistake it is.

Mind you, a pedestrian won't always come off worse in a collision with a bike - I was once knocked off by a pedestrian stepping out in front of me without looking; I was sent sprawling while the ped stayed on her feet.

d.

[drossall]

Yes, but it's still true that, ideally, on the road, I would have enough margin to cope with your mistakes, and vice versa, irrespective of mode of transport.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Except perhaps on the streets Woolly's talking about, but I'm not familiar with them.

They've started to introduce streets like that in London, funnily enough.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_space#United_Kingdom

d.

I've seen many photos of them, but I don't recall ever walking, cycling, driving, being a bus passenger or anything else in one in real life. Unless, I suppose, you count Stroud High Street. I don't think I've ever cycled along it though, because it doesn't actually go anywhere.

[citoyen]

The one in Ashford it mentions on Wikipedia is interesting. I've used the new "naked" street both on bike and in a car and it's much nicer than it used to be, but that really isn't saying much because it used to be a particularly horrible bit of road - part of the four-lane one-way ring road that effectively turned the centre of Ashford into an inaccessible island.

The biggest down side is that Ashford town centre is now accessible…

d.

[Panoramix]

In this part of Bristol there are quite a few unlit cyclists and although I've always managed to see them in time, I would rather not have to take evasive action and be in a position to anticipate more. In a darker area , you probably see them 10 or 20m in advance. Bring in a badly located manhole cover, a taxi passing you with 3 inches to spare or an idiot following you to close and you can be in trouble.

IMO they are more of an issue to others cyclists than other cars. True it is similar to a pedestrian stepping in front of you but pedestrians aren't supposed to do this!

[citoyen]

True it is similar to a pedestrian stepping in front of you but pedestrians aren't supposed to do this!

Maybe pedestrians should also be required to have lights at night, to make them more visible to other road users.

d.

[BarryS]

I recently followed a cyclist with
1. Altura night vision tights.
2. Pedal reflectors.

Both of which were hugely noticable, because, I think, they moved in an odd way and at frequency of nothing else in view.

So I would definitely try the tights, but I can't think how to add reflectors to spd/look pedals, any suggestions?

Barry

[mrcharly-YHT]

So I would definitely try the tights, but I can't think how to add reflectors to spd/look pedals, any suggestions?

Barry

Easier to fasten them to your shoes.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Depending what type of spd pedals, adhesive-backed reflective tape might work.

[citoyen]

So I would definitely try the tights, but I can't think how to add reflectors to spd/look pedals, any suggestions?

Add them to you rather than to the pedals. I use hi-viz velcro-fastening ankle bands, a bit like this:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/High-Visibility-Arm-Ankle-Bands/dp/B002JDLCD0/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1320663960&sr=8-14

d.

[Karla]

True it is similar to a pedestrian stepping in front of you but pedestrians aren't supposed to do this!

Maybe pedestrians should also be required to have lights at night, to make them more visible to other road users.

d.

I've never been injured after being run over by a pedestrian - their top speed of 4mph tends to limit possible damage.

[woollypigs]

True it is similar to a pedestrian stepping in front of you but pedestrians aren't supposed to do this!

Maybe pedestrians should also be required to have lights at night, to make them more visible to other road users.

d.

When I grew up in Denmark anyone with respect for themselves gave out reflectors, shaped like their logo or had their name written on. These reflectors was to hang off your jacket or backpack while you were walking about at night. So as a child it became a competition to have as many you could get your hands on and hang them about your person. but also to have ones of the most rare reflector. I was lucky to have folks and friends of my folks who worked at places that was giving these out at any chance they had, so therefore always had a few spare to give to friends.

Though over the last few years, I have noticed that these reflectors are very rare and kids are being driving about instead of cycling or walking. 

[citoyen]

True it is similar to a pedestrian stepping in front of you but pedestrians aren't supposed to do this!

Maybe pedestrians should also be required to have lights at night, to make them more visible to other road users.

d.

I've never been injured after being run over by a pedestrian - their top speed of 4mph tends to limit possible damage.

Lucky you. I have been injured after being knocked off my bike by a pedestrian, as already mentioned.

In any case, I was thinking more for their own protection. After all, we're saying that one of the reasons cyclists should use lights is to avoid being hit by other vehicles.

d.

[woollypigs]

A with the M5 crash, it is all down to people not driving/cycling/walking safely around, moving too fast, not keeping enough safe distance between them or look where they go.

How many of us have walked into a person who just stopped dead in the doorway as we both walked out off a shop?

[Karla]

Citoyen, if you'd been walking, you wouldn't have been injured.  The potential for injury is created when people choose to move around using fast, dangerous machines.  I don't see why the rest of the population, who stick to normal, slow, safe walking, should then be required to create even more hassle for themselves in order to protect themselves from the dangerous habits of the impatient people who are prepared to create risk in order to move around speedily. 

[mattc]

Citoyen, if you'd been walking, you wouldn't have been injured.  The potential for injury is created when people choose to move around using fast, dangerous machines.  I don't see why the rest of the population, who stick to normal, slow, safe walking, should then be required to create even more hassle for themselves in order to protect themselves from the dangerous habits of the impatient people who are prepared to create risk in order to move around speedily.

A top speed of 4mph you say?

 

Ped/cycle collisions are radically different from those involving motor vehicles:
- They're usually low speed, so few serious injuries. Clearly cyclists should seek to avoid high speed collisions by the appropriate means.
- Cyclists are very vulnerable in these incidents, so by self-interest will tend to be more careful than drivers.
- Being so light, low-speed collisions cause almost negligible damage to pedestrians.

I would rather have a reckless cyclist on the roads than the average motorist.

[citoyen]

Citoyen, if you'd been walking, you wouldn't have been injured.

Maybe… you can't say that for certain, but I take your point. I was going quick-ish at the time (it was on a gentle downhill slope). Perhaps if the street had been a "shared space", I'd have been going slower and would have been more wary of the possibility of pedestrians stepping out in front of me.

The potential for injury is created when people choose to move around using fast, dangerous machines.

And runners. Don't forget runners. They're a menace. Especially when they're "in the zone". 

I don't see why the rest of the population, who stick to normal, slow, safe walking, should then be required to create even more hassle for themselves in order to protect themselves from the dangerous habits of the impatient people who are prepared to create risk in order to move around speedily.

I've not made myself clear - I'm asking the question rather than putting forward a point of view. The consensus of this thread seems to be that cyclists should use lights to protect themselves from the dangerous habits of others, so what's the difference?  I've already said that I don't believe the onus should be on pedestrians to protect themselves from other road users. Nor do I believe the onus should be on cyclists to protect themselves from motorists.

And yes, I agree that the onus should be on cyclists to avoid hitting pedestrians, even with my experience of it being the pedestrian's fault.

d.

[Panoramix]

I don't thin it's a matter of onus, more one of being helpful to others making their life easier. Pedestrians are different as they only cross the road so in theory it should be easy for them to avoid others.

[Kim]

So I would definitely try the tights, but I can't think how to add reflectors to spd/look pedals, any suggestions?

For SPDs there's the clip-on plastic platform thing, that includes legal reflectors.  I have a set on one of my bikes because one of the pedals has a stripped tension adjustment screw on one side.  As a platform it's occasionally useful for riding unclipped in start-stop traffic or on shared paths, but fairly rubbish in normal shoes.

Otherwise, stick some Scotchlite tape on the crank arm.  It won't be legal, but will have the same effect.


I agree that the night vision tights are extremely visible.

[nuttycyclist]

And runners. Don't forget runners. They're a menace. Especially when they're "in the zone". 

Yes, as a pedestrian I've had issues with unlit joggers too.


Actually widening the floor slightly, let's introduce equestrians too.    This week, after dusk, I've been driving a fair bit in the new forest.   Despite the highway code rule 51 (below) I've found that all riders appear to be trusting their safety to just a reflective vest.  Despite the roads being unlit and the speed limit 40mph.    At least my original post relates to 30mph speed limits and extensive urban lighting...

At night. It is safer not to ride on the road at night or in poor visibility, but if you do, make sure you wear reflective clothing and your horse has reflective bands above the fetlock joints. A light which shows white to the front and red to the rear should be fitted, with a band, to the rider’s right arm and/or leg/riding boot. If you are leading a horse at night, carry a light in your right hand, showing white to the front and red to the rear, and wear reflective clothing on both you and your horse. It is strongly recommended that a fluorescent/reflective tail guard is also worn by your horse.