Super bright flashing bloody lights

[Cudzoziemiec]

I'm slightly sceptical that the Phillips light Simon is on about is really that good.  I mean I'm sure it's a very good light, but I'm sceptical about it having any chance at all of competing with a modern super light like teethgrinder's Exposure SixPack (2000 lumens, almost), or even a more down-to-earth MaXx-D.  Of course I'm with everyone who thinks that our LED lights really ought to have better optics closer to those on car headlights to allow for proper dip and full beam settings.

I think you're getting too obsessed with numbers and/or the amount of light. Simon made it pretty clear that the shaped beam is a big factor for him, but you've gone back to just comparing outputs.

I'll repeat this for clarity - the shaped beam isn't just benefiting Simon!

Zackly - but Wendy seems to take a certain pleasure in giving people "a free headache" and uses rear lights to tell people to "GET THE FUCK OFF MY REAR". Not things I use my lights for, but I'm sure his are good at it.

[Hot Flatus]

I've no experience of riding one, but Im struggling with your last sentence

I rode an ICE Sprint through Birmingham rush hour traffic for about an hour yesterday.  I got exactly *zero* unsafe overtakes (most overtakers actually used their indicators!), pullings-out at junctions requiring me to brake, etc.  Doing the same journey on a Streetmachine, I might expect one or two.  Compare with the typical experience on an upright bicycle.

I think that's what Wendy is getting at.

I can envisage that.

It's when they can't see you that bothers me.

[niggle]

For the front Magicshine I have swapped out the lens with one of these wide beam ones:

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wide-Angle-Lens-4-MagicShine-Gemini-Lupine-Bike-Light-/280752532003?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D300545626206%252B300545626206%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4608655996468539546

(this looks similar: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wide-Angle-Lens-Magicshine-Lupine-and-Gemini-Bike-Lights-/260892501919?_trksid=p4340.m185&_trkparms=algo%3DDLSL%252BSIC.NPJS%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BUA%26otn%3D10%26pmod%3D300545626206%252B300545626206%26po%3D%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D4608663484475840596 )

Quite effective IME, letting less light shine upwards and lighting up the road edge quite nicely as well, but I still dip the light down for oncoming vehicles.

[Kim]

It's when they can't see you that bothers me.

I think those situations are going to be the ones where they're cognitively only looking for cars (on roundabouts, for example), and an upright bike will fare just as badly.  Best mitigated with assertive road positioning, good lights, and the assumption that everyone's going to drive like idiots, but yes there's always going to be a risk.

At which point on a 'bent at least I suppose I'll crash feet-first and land on my shoulder/hip rather than head-first and land on my wrist/collarbone.   

[simonp]

I'm slightly sceptical that the Phillips light Simon is on about is really that good.  I mean I'm sure it's a very good light, but I'm sceptical about it having any chance at all of competing with a modern super light like teethgrinder's Exposure SixPack (2000 lumens, almost), or even a more down-to-earth MaXx-D.  Of course I'm with everyone who thinks that our LED lights really ought to have better optics closer to those on car headlights to allow for proper dip and full beam settings.

I think you're getting too obsessed with numbers and/or the amount of light. Simon made it pretty clear that the shaped beam is a big factor for him, but you've gone back to just comparing outputs.

I'll repeat this for clarity - the shaped beam isn't just benefiting Simon!

Others have said that the Philips is at least as good as 1000 lumen symmetric beam lights.

Here is a shot of the illumination it provides:



Note how uniform the illumination is. This is something not achieved with a symmetric beam and you need to both account for the light spill (which is dangerous for oncoming traffic) and the fact that to get the same minimum illumination of the road you need a far, far higher maximum illumination, which means you need even more because of the effect of the bright spot in front of you.

[Wendy]

Light spill is actually very useful, and there's lots present in car headlights, even on dip. It's particularly useful when the corners get tight. The limit to the upward spill is what we all want to avoid blinding oncoming vehicles.

[simonp]

Light spill is actually very useful, and there's lots present in car headlights, even on dip. It's particularly useful when the corners get tight. The limit to the upward spill is what we all want to avoid blinding oncoming vehicles.

Hence symmetric beams are out. Good.

[Wendy]

Oh, I'm sure just about everyone here thinks better optics for road use are a good thing, yes? Not just for other road users, but also for improved effectiveness of our own lights. I thought we'd all agreed upon that point already?

OTOH I'm not sure that a MTB style light is such a big problem on the roads. Most of the brightness/dazzling issue to me seems to be people offended that bikes could have lights almost as bright as car lights. Apparently that's not right, that's NOT ALLOWED.

I think I posted this before:


That's an older cars headlights on dip, so not as bright as many more modern cars, and an Exposure MaXx-D on full power pointed straight at the camera. Additionally, my boy is wearing a hiviz coat and I've pointed an Exposure Joystick on full power towards him. Before people argue camera settings, the image is reasonably representative of what my own eyes saw at the time.

[mattc]

[I don't really understand what your piccie is proving  . But anyway ... ]

As a CYCLIST the only serious problems I have are with:
- Drivers on unlit roads failing to dip soon enough
- Oncoming cyclists with very bright (probably conical-beamed) lights. Especially bad if encountered on cycle-paths!

You'll appreciate that I cannot tell what make/model/style the latter lights are, so I can't really get into a detailed debate about which ones are problematic. I can't honestly remember a cyclist dipping his lights (in any way) on seeing me coming his/her way.

Forum threads like this one - and many similar ones on other fora - confirm that I'm not some weirdo with outdated or over-sensitive eyesight, as lots of people have made the same observations. It does rather seem that the users who are defending their own choice of super-bright light are also failing to acknowledge that there is a problem.

I'm alright Jack!

[simonp]

Oh, I'm sure just about everyone here thinks better optics for road use are a good thing, yes? Not just for other road users, but also for improved effectiveness of our own lights. I thought we'd all agreed upon that point already?

OTOH I'm not sure that a MTB style light is such a big problem on the roads. Most of the brightness/dazzling issue to me seems to be people offended that bikes could have lights almost as bright as car lights. Apparently that's not right, that's NOT ALLOWED.

What’s not allowed is using a light that dazzles or otherwise inconveniences another road user - because it’s illegal.

[Wendy]

My point is that I don't think the dazzle problem is real or significant. I quite often meet the bigfoot bike club riders on my commute, and they have the usual seriously expensive bike lights. They're not remarkably different to car lights in my perception, just whiter and slightly odd as they don't move as fast as cars do.

As for proof, well, I can't give it myself, obv., but I hardly ever get oncoming cars flashing me to dip my light, even on full power and pointed straight down the road. I think it's less than once every couple of months, and I imagine I easily pass somewhere between 20,000 to 150,000 cars in that sort of timeframe. Additionally its obvious that car lights deliver more light at the receiving end given how they so easily wash out a powerful light like mine as cars overtake me.

To me it's all about bikes not being allowed to have lights like car lights, and that the intense white colour of LED lights is somehow less pleasant to some people than the warmer yellow glow of car halogens. Finally I've wondered whether the flashing of LED lights (even on "constant", they are flashing, just very fast) might not add to our dislike of them?

[simonp]

I can't honestly remember a cyclist dipping his lights (in any way) on seeing me coming his/her way.

On the BCM I set up my EDelux as a main beam and the Philips as my dipped beam for the night stage. If you had been really slow I would have ‘dipped’ (i.e. turned off the EDelux) for you when we crossed on the common out/back leg*.  I was able to descend at about 50kph (limited by spinning rather than lighting) quite comfortably.

There /is/ a problem with excessively bright bike lights. I think the small frontal area is an issue, because the same point on the road is illuminated from more places with a large surface area light, and focusing on the light doesn’t result in it all arriving in a small area of the retina which is overloaded.

* I also saw a couple of riders riding the wrong way on the back leg. Cheats!

[Wendy]

I think the small frontal area is an issue, because the same point on the road is illuminated from more places with a large surface area light, and focusing on the light doesn’t result in it all arriving in a small area of the retina which is overloaded.

I think this was addressed earlier - source width isn't very relevant at all. See Mal Volio's post for confirmation.

[simonp]

I think the small frontal area is an issue, because the same point on the road is illuminated from more places with a large surface area light, and focusing on the light doesn’t result in it all arriving in a small area of the retina which is overloaded.

I think this was addressed earlier - source width isn't very relevant at all. See Mal Volio's post for confirmation.

Er, no.

This is why a 60W fluorescent light isn’t dazzling but a clear glass incandescent bulb at the same power *is* despite both providing the same surface illumination.

[Cudzoziemiec]

OTOH I'm not sure that a MTB style light is such a big problem on the roads. Most of the brightness/dazzling issue to me seems to be people offended that bikes could have lights almost as bright as car lights. Apparently that's not right, that's NOT ALLOWED.

To me it's all about bikes not being allowed to have lights like car lights, and that the intense white colour of LED lights is somehow less pleasant to some people than the warmer yellow glow of car halogens. Finally I've wondered whether the flashing of LED lights (even on "constant", they are flashing, just very fast) might not add to our dislike of them?

This is curious. Who has said that bike lights are not allowed to have lights like car lights? I'd quite like it if I could have the same output, beam shape and simple controls, in a package that was light and small enough to fit on handlebars or fork crown.

[Wendy]

Er, no.

This is why a 60W fluorescent light isn’t dazzling but a clear glass incandescent bulb at the same power *is* despite both providing the same surface illumination.

Hmm, that's actually quite well put, given that fluorescent bulbs are perhaps 10 times as efficient as incandescents.

I'm not sure whether I have a good return argument for that, I'll get back to you.  My initial thought is that despite the fluorescent light being more powerful, its light is going everywhere in many different directions, whilst the tungsten light is much more parallel, so you still get more of it to the same place in your eye.

[tatanab]

I hardly ever get oncoming cars flashing me to dip my light, even on full power and pointed straight down the road.

To some extent this depends where you ride.  If you ride on lit streets then you have all the background clutter of other lights and maybe can justify a hyper light by having to compete with this clutter.  On the other hand, if you ride mainly in pitch black lanes then you will find that some motorists coming the other way will simply stop.  This also applies to some extent with rear lights as well.  I have noticed that in lanes where people pass easily and safely during daylight they will hang back for a long time before passing after dark.  I use a Cateye LD1100 with one row on constant and one on flash, so compared with some hyper lights it is pretty feeble.

In the lanes a bright front light can cause problems that do not exist with more feeble lights.  I use a Philips LED headlight on dim usually or bright for very dark areas.  There are some places where I have to ride more slowly with the Philips than I did with 3W halogen lights because I cannot see the exit of the tight right hand bends.  I cannot see beyond my lights.  This gets us into the lighting wars of "I cannot see so I need more light (like motor cars have done)" whereas it may be better for everybody to have less.

[Wendy]

I think I'd agree with that - but having at least a decently powerful light does help encourage drivers to pull over at a passing place rather than blatting through when they think you're only a cyclist.

Riding in London's light is a good reason to have more powerful lights, and I have a remote button to control my headlight for when I enter the country lanes section.

[arabella]

If you ride on lit streets then you have all the background clutter of other lights and maybe can justify a hyper light by having to compete with this clutter.  On the other hand, if you ride mainly in pitch black lanes then <snip>
In the lanes a bright front light can cause problems that do not exist with more feeble lights. 

This.
I mentioned somewhere that I got out my really feeble light one dark ride (for which read icba to swap over my dynamo hub) which was fine to see by in the pitch black ('cos my eyes adjust etc.) but the moment any other light appeared (car, porch light, floodlit farm/church, etc) then I was bedazzled to squinting sideways-ness to be able to see.  In towns, my eyes adjusted to streetlights and car lights weren't a problem - it's the contrast.

So what is to be done. 
Lights to see by, cars, town - not required where there is street lighting - didn't there used to be some rule that said you didn't need headlights if the street lights were less than 30 yards apart?  Up for debate.
Lights to see by, cars, unlit streets - need to be able to see for xxx seconds ahead, whatever is sufficient for that at 70mph and no brighter
Lights to see by, bikes, town - similar to car sidelights
Lights to see by, bikes, unlit streets - same response as for cars, though your top speed may be less than 70mph
Lights to be seen by - not clear whether they need to be brighter of dimmer than the lights to see by.
Better go and chew it over a bit more, it's got to beat going shopping. 

[Kim]

I'm not sure whether I have a good return argument for that, I'll get back to you.  My initial thought is that despite the fluorescent light being more powerful, its light is going everywhere in many different directions, whilst the tungsten light is much more parallel, so you still get more of it to the same place in your eye.

Nahh, from a reasonable distance, in the absence of any optics, and disregarding the bits where the electrical stuff connects, a tungsten lamp approximates a point source radiating equally in all directions, and the fluorescent tube a line source radiating in all directions.  I reckon it comes down to a simple matter of power per unit area (of the source, and correspondingly of the image formed on the retina) - the flurry has a *lot* more area.

Area is clearly a good thing for be-seen lights: just look at the fibre flare.  There's this effect, which means you can use more power or flashing modes that would be offensive in a point-source, and there's a sort of giving-something-to-focus-on effect, which I reckon is extremely helpful for allowing others to correctly judge your speed, and allows a cyclist in the middle distance to stand out against point sources in the background.

[Cudzoziemiec]

A car driver dipped for me this evening. I had my Hope 1 on level 2 and was in an unlit bit of road on Bristol Downs, the car was on a nearby lit section of the same road (so why did he have his lights on high beam? I don't know.) Of course, this could mean I was dazzling them or it could just mean they saw me and realised I could be dazzled. In fact I wasn't.

Ten seconds earlier I had entered the unlit section and put my light up to 3. After one second it cut out - not enough power in the batteries. But it still worked on levels 1 and 2 (so why can't they make it just drop down a level when there's insufficient juice in the batteries? Grrr.) I stopped for a while to admire the view of the Suspension Bridge all lit up from the dark of Sea Wall - then I realised there were various cars parked in the darkness around, with people sitting in them... so I moved on before someone came up to me and asked if was "a friend of Roger". 

[De Sisti]

After a woman in our club was killed last year after being rear ended by a Land Rover (a car with
supposedly very good all around views), I went out and bought a Dinotte 400L. It's for my safety;
I don't want to get rear end by another driver not paying attention. If a rider comes up behind me
and tells me he/she thinks it's too bright, I tell that it's for my safety (I'm the one who judges what's
safe for me) and not their convenience. They can either continue to ride on ahead of me (I'm normally very slow),
or stay well back.

I know it goes against the grain of current opinion on this topic, but ultimately, I don't thinks it's
being selfish, I'm doing what I think is best for my safety. Curiously, motor vehicles seem to give
me more room when they overtake me when I use the Dinotte.

[iakobski]

I know it goes against the grain of current opinion on this topic, but ultimately, I don't thinks it's
being selfish, I'm doing what I think is best for my safety. Curiously, motor vehicles seem to give
me more room when they overtake me when I use the Dinotte.

Not at all, the thread irritation is about front lights after all. Decent rear lights are seen by virtually everyone as a very good thing, as long as you turn them down and to steady in a group. If I happen across someone with super bright flashing rear lights that's no problem, either they will be faster and disappear into the distance, or slower and I pass them, or, more usually ride alongside for a bit to say hello.

Front lights are a different thing altogether. Only a complete knob would use flashing mode in complete darkness (though there are a few) but until this year, if I saw a cyclist coming towards me I've thought "fantastic, someone else out using their bike as transport and not resorting to the car just because it's cold and dark". This year, it's different: easily half the cyclists I've seen this winter have had stupid bright, undirectional, lights on bike and head. Not as many as there are drivers who don't dip, but enough that I've started to tell people to turn it down. One last week was aiming his head torch straight at me while shouting a cheery hello - surely he could see I was shielding my eyes even if he didn't hear my mumbled cursing.

[iakobski]

Oh and car drivers: one kind, considerate driver last week stopped to let me go over a narrow bridge first. The only thing was they stopped on the rise to the hump of the bridge so their lights completely and utterly blinded me, couldn't see the road let alone the walls on the bridge, so I stopped, with my hands shielding my eyes. They waited. They were probably sitting there waving me to come through. Even if they couldn't work out how brightly lit up I was surely my hands over my eyes were a clue? 

[mattc]

After a woman in our club was killed last year after being rear ended by a Land Rover (a car with
supposedly very good all around views), I went out and bought a Dinotte 400L. It's for my safety;
I don't want to get rear end by another driver not paying attention.

Perhaps you should avoid the road where that happened. It's a pretty rare kind of incident - you'd improve your odds more by getting off and walking at every roundabout.

If a rider comes up behind me  and tells me he/she thinks it's too bright, I tell that it's for my safety (I'm the one who judges what's safe for me) and not their convenience. They can either continue to ride on ahead of me (I'm normally very slow), or stay well back.

It can take a long time to catch and pass these over-bright lights. You clearly know there is a problem - cyclists (and Audaxers) are such a timid lot, that getting even a few complaints says to me that you are irritating almost everyone. How about stopping to LET other riders pass? You;re the cause of the problem - how about solving it?

Just consider the scenario of EVERONE - cyclists and drivers - using these over-the-top lights. It would be pretty awful (and the car drivers have juice to run lights much more powerful than yours).

Matt