Author Topic: Cities fit for cycling  (Read 12670 times)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #50 on: February 03, 2012, 08:14:14 pm »
I agree that the police/CPS could be doing what we want - but they're not. Maybe we should look at other options, improve our odds? If HSE stopped all the KSIs caused by vehicles that are (effectively) a workplace, that would be marvellous.

I also think it would set a standard - everyone knows someone that drives for a living, or does significant business mileage.

To labour a point about theatre (and many other industries) and the road, the theatre's duty of care to the public frequently extends beyond the boundaries of the building. When we operate in a public space we are just as stringently required to protect the public as if we were operating in our own premises.
We frequently have to load and unload trucks across a busy footway.
Many theatres are in such congested and labyrinthine locations that it takes over a dozen people to safely manoeuvre an artic in to its bay. We are expected to anticipate and mitigate against the stupidity of the public.
A serious incident here could have the same repercussions with the HSE as if it occurred in our space. However the consequences of a terrible 'accident' occurring once the truck is five minutes down the road after leaving the theatre are far less severe for the vehicles operators.

Are there legal barriers to the HSE caring about the trucks once they've left the theatre( or construction site, or distribution centre)? And if so, how do we remove them?!?

From a "common sense" viewpoint, it seems absurd that HSE stops once they're out on our highways.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #51 on: February 03, 2012, 08:17:56 pm »
Quote from: fboab
Dear David Ruffley,

We don't have a city in Suffolk. Bury isn't a city, nor is Stowmarket, and I'd argue that Ipswich isn't either.
We do have cyclists though, and drivers. And often we don't have enough understanding by the drivers of the cyclists' point of view.
We do have a right to cycle on the roads- even if there's a cycle path alongside it, there is no such thing as road tax, we are entitled to courtesy and it's not illegal to ride without a helmet, or without wearing Hi-Vis.
Please could you support the Times Newspaper's campaign: Cities Fit For Cycling.
We have some of the finest countryside for cycling in, in Suffolk, and we should be making it better for people to cycle in. Not by making cycle routes, but by doing all we can to encourage motorists and cyclists to coexist safely.

Yours sincerely,

fboab
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

benborp

  • benbravoorpapa
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #52 on: February 03, 2012, 09:21:36 pm »
...legislation already exists for those working on roads and streets, from Food Hygiene for the kebab van to the various Road Traffic regulations that we're concerned with here. It's that legislation that needs enforcing, not other rules that need extending. We should be looking at Traffic Police and CPS not HSE.

The proper enforcement of current legislation would make a huge difference to the day to day lives of most cyclists and would probably save more than a handful of lives. It's something we should lobby for as strongly as for any of the other manifesto points in the Times' campaign.

There are factors surrounding the death of cyclists under the wheels of large vehicles that can't be addressed purely by legislation and enforcement though. On this forum many are aware that it is foolish to make assumptions about where the responsibility for any reported incident lies. Many also know of the difficulties of apportioning blame to a criminal standard. There are too many variables in each individual case. (It's not impossible to hypothesise a situation where a competent and diligent truck driver, driving a lorry with more than the legislated safety equipment could be involved in the death of a (legally considered) competent and diligent cyclist). It is apparent though that there are patterns and trends amongst HGV fatalities and that HGVs are involved in proportionally far more deaths than any other vehicle. This is where the HSE is very effective. The HSE is practised in identifying the causal factors in workplace injuries and issuing guidance to industry to limit further casualties. It is unthinkable that today an industry overseen by the HSE would be killing a dozen or so people a year in an almost identical manner and continuing to do so for over a decade.
Another aspect in which the HSE would be far more effective than new legislation is in providing oversight in the range of areas that need to be addressed to deal with HGV deaths. Legislation is not swift enough or flexible enough to deal with advancements in transport technology, training techniques, trends in urban redevelopment or human responses to official intervention in their day to day lives. The HSE deals with these interlocking fields across a wide range of industries and would be ideally suited to providing guidance to all the bodies involved in attempting to eliminate these deaths.
A world of bedlam trapped inside a small cyclist.

AndyK

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #53 on: February 04, 2012, 08:58:12 am »
The Torygraph's Brendan O'Neill wades in against The Times campaign.

red marley

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #54 on: February 04, 2012, 09:32:54 am »
A headline "Cyclists are pompous enough as it is" written by the editor of "an online phenomenon dedicated to raising the horizons of humanity by waging a culture war of words against misanthropy, priggishness, prejudice, luddism, illiberalism, and irrationalism in all their ancient and modern forms"

Somewhere in the multiverse an entire universe just collapsed in on itself trying to resolve that particular paradox.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #55 on: February 04, 2012, 09:37:37 am »
I'd guess that the telegraph cannot afford to be pro-cycling as it may rely more on the car industry for advertising than the times with its pay wall.

Often editorial policy is affected by paymasters.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #56 on: February 04, 2012, 12:02:34 pm »
Telegraph says:
Quote
The Times wants ... drivers in general to be re-educated in the importance of always keeping one’s eyes peeled for those on two wheels.
Quote
and in the next paragraph
Quote
Of course, if road safety can be improved to reduce the number of cycling deaths, then let’s do it
As if they hadn't just dismissed the most important and simplest way to do this.
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #57 on: February 04, 2012, 12:14:16 pm »
I thought I should say something more about the HSE as I've probably given the impression I want them abolished or something like that. And then I'll shut up about them. In fact, I think their remit should be extended to include some aspects of what van drivers, couriers and probably taxi drivers do, along the lines of HGV and coach drivers, at least as regards working and driving hours. Unfortunately AFAIK there is no legislation on hours or training for these groups currently. But what I don't think is that they can any main focus of traffic safety, for these reasons:
- They can, obviously, only deal with working vehicles. Cars outnumber all of these added together.
- They are the most appropriate agency to deal with aspects of work connected with HGV drivers etc, for instance loading and unloading, smoking in cabs, etc, but for traffic safety it is more appropriate to have it all dealt with and enforced by traffic police. That's why we have traffic regulations affecting all traffic!
- Last and least, it's well known that in London there is a big problem with lorries and cyclists, particularly tipper trucks and cement lorries. This does seem to be a London-specific problem and so emphasising HSE's role focusses the whole campaign on London - but London already gets a lot of attention and if this is to be a nationwide effort as the Times intends, it has to look at other cities. Ideally, as Boab has pointed out, it shouldn't stop at cities.
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #58 on: February 04, 2012, 12:17:03 pm »
Plenty of car drivers are driving for work.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #59 on: February 04, 2012, 01:09:08 pm »
HGVs and tippers and such are mainly a problem in the dense urban core.  They were a real bear in Oxford when I were a nipper.  The difference is, you could clear the entire urban core in five minutes.  London's is just the biggest.
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.

AndyK

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2012, 07:48:09 pm »

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2012, 07:51:22 pm »
My frustration has reached pustule point and popped.  Clearly what the squishies need while this Brave New World is being made is a PSA:

"You wouldn't jump into lava! You wouldn't feed your legs into a woodchipper! So why would you ride up the inside of a lorry?"

With super gory puppets.  And maybe a Beaker in the throw zone getting smooshed after doing The Science Bit.
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2012, 07:53:10 pm »
The Times prints a correction re: 'road tax.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3311131.ece

Good link Andy; but of what is it a correction?  ???
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2012, 08:54:35 pm »
So we have Cracknell (an oarsman IICR) proselytising on behalf of funny hats, the old road tax troll-favourite and Jon Snow of all people calling for licensing.

Glad I ignored this News International marketing exercise.
The journey is always more important than the destination

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2012, 12:47:50 am »
Of those it is Cracknell and his magic hat that piss me off the most.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2012, 02:25:39 am »
The Times prints a correction re: 'road tax.

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3311131.ece
I'm slightly puzzled that I haven't noticed that one in today's paper version.

Does anyone know whether it was printed &, if so, in which editions?

Philip Benstead

  • Cycling4ALL - say No Bike No Life
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2012, 08:25:45 am »

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3311182.ece


Cyclists in Paris can ignore the red traffic light
Philip Benstead B.Env.Sc. (Hons.), NSI

Independent Cycle Campaigner and Cycle Consultant
DfT accredited BikeAbility Instructor / L3 Mechanic
07949801698 cycling4westminster@gmail.com

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2012, 08:47:48 am »

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3311182.ece


Cyclists in Paris can ignore the red traffic light

They will only be allowed to ignore ones that have a yellow bike symbol, and then only turning right or going straight on.

Interestingly:-

Quote
A total of 496 were fined €35 for using a mobile telephone on their bicycle.

Does that mean that the fine was €0.07?
Quote from: Kim
Paging Diver300.  Diver300 to the GSM Trimphone, please...

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2012, 09:38:20 am »
So we have Cracknell (an oarsman IICR) proselytising on behalf of funny hats, the old road tax troll-favourite and Jon Snow of all people calling for licensing.

Glad I ignored this News International marketing exercise.

Now they're banging on about "cycling infrastructure".

I would hope (dream?) this meant the building of municipal, guarded, secure, covered bicycle parks, like the Dutch fietsstallings. However I suspect it really means cr@p cycle paths intended to get dem pesky cyclists out of the way of Decent People in Cars.
The journey is always more important than the destination

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2012, 09:46:21 am »
As has been pointed out many times in various locations and far more eloquently than I will manage in the next few sentences, creating 'cycling infrastructure' is unlikely to succeed (whatever 'succeed' means) in most urban locations.

Given the apparent huge unrealised demand for cycling, any facility built now will not cope with the number of cyclists wanting to use it, especially so where road space is limited due to legacy street plans.

Just look at the blue routes into London now, they're already overfull and we've hardly scratched the surface of those who want to cycle (and authorities seem to be trying to persuade to cycle).
Rust never sleeps

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2012, 11:20:44 am »

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3311182.ece


Cyclists in Paris can ignore the red traffic light

They will only be allowed to ignore ones that have a yellow bike symbol, and then only turning right or going straight on.
They're introducing on an experimental basis what applies to all traffic in some countries.
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

AndyK

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #71 on: February 09, 2012, 09:46:05 am »
'Keen cyclist' Cameron and Labour express support for campaign:

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3313881.ece

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #72 on: February 09, 2012, 04:27:14 pm »
Have received a reply from my MP:


Quote
Thank you for your recent email about The Times' Cities fit for Cycling Campaign.

I appreciate you taking the time to write to me about this matter and I agree that there needs to be improvements on our road network to make cycling safer. I also believe that more needs to be done to improve awareness amongst both drivers and cyclists using our busy road network.

As a member of the Transport Select Committee we have looked into ways to encourage people to cycle more and we are also in the middle of a road safety inquiry. Through this latest inquiry it has been pointed out that new EU legislation on HGVs has been implemented requiring blind spot mirrors to be fitted to all new vehicles and to retro-fit to old vehicles; which is something I support in the drive to make cycling safer.

I agree with you that improvements to the driving test are needed in a number of areas, not just regarding cycle safety.

I would also support the case for more dedicated cycle tracks, where possible, and better enforcement of traffic rules for both motorists and cyclists. On this point, I have noticed through my time as a pedestrian, in both York and London, some cyclists tend to have less regard for pedestrian crossings than motorists.

I have recently written to the Department of Transport on this matter and as soon as I receive a response I will be happy to send this on to you.

Once again, thank you for taking the time to write to me about this matter.

My bolds. 

I am disappointed.  Any comments would be interesting as I think I may respond back.


Sic transit and all that..

AndyK

Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #73 on: February 09, 2012, 05:07:49 pm »
I would say your MP's experiences of who ignores pedestrian crossings are purely anecdotal.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cities fit for cycling
« Reply #74 on: February 09, 2012, 05:51:45 pm »
I think I can summarise that letter:

"Perhaps you should get a car, sonny."
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles