Cross Training: Running

[Dibdib]

Day two of couch to 5k. 4km in about 32 mins. Shin pain, interminable drizzle, and I accidentally stepped in a two-inch-deep puddle.

Still feel good though. 

How often does C25K require you to get ou?

The recommendation is three times a week, for *checks* nine weeks. The three runs in each week are (usually) the same.

I'm currently working away in Germay so obviously couldn't bring a bike. Packed my trainers instead and did Wk 1 Day 3 on Tuesday, and if it stays dry I'll have a go at the first run in week 2 tonight.

[Polar Bear]

Ah, I sort of guessed that but the website doesn't seem to say this.  I was not prepared to download the schedule because there was all sorts of junk attached in the form of toolbars etc. so I decided that it might be unwise.

My own plan involves three dedicated session per week on foot.   I did my first 'running' yesterday.   

 

[L CC]

I worked my way throught the Zombies 5k. It's the same thing, pretty much, 3 x a week, 8 weeks, walk-run drills with knee lifts, heel lifts and the occasional bout of skipping to make you feel even more of a twit, but does include a) your own music and b) a zombie laden story. There're quite a few couch-to-5k apps for Android (and presumably iThing).

[Dibdib]

Ah, I sort of guessed that but the website doesn't seem to say this.  I was not prepared to download the schedule because there was all sorts of junk attached in the form of toolbars etc. so I decided that it might be unwise.

My own plan involves three dedicated session per week on foot.   I did my first 'running' yesterday.   

I worked my way throught the Zombies 5k. It's the same thing, pretty much, 3 x a week, 8 weeks, walk-run drills with knee lifts, heel lifts and the occasional bout of skipping to make you feel even more of a twit, but does include a) your own music and b) a zombie laden story. There're quite a few couch-to-5k apps for Android (and presumably iThing).

I'm using the NHS's C25k app^* which is thankfully spammy-toolbar free. No knee lifts or zombies, just walk-run drills building up to "go run for half an hour".  No music, but plays very nicely with the iphone media player - so when I go out I fire up C25k, a Daft Punk playlist, and Strava^**.

* for iPhone, but I think it's available for Android and also as an iTunes podcast or a plain download from the NHS website.
** because GPS or it didn't happen. 

[redshift]

My name is redshift, and I'm not a runner.

This is a bit like me telling Andy Gates that I'm not a long-distance rider just after 80+ miles of riding in a torrential downpour on the way to Preston.  I'm not.  Really I'm not.  I commute mostly by bike and do occasional longer rides, and on the occasions when I used to run at all doing sports, they were always short springy twisty things like sprints, rounders and netball.

So. At Xmas 2012 I caught flu.  Badly.  It left me with a coughing asthmatic wheeze that I haven't been able to shake, and it took until summer last year for me to be comfortable riding to work.  I still have a reliever inhaler, just in case, but I reached a plateau on the commute and it hadn't improved.

Back in December I started the NHS C25K, with a fairly specific idea - I need to push my cardio system to the point where the improvement caused by running makes the breathing during cycling better.  So far, it seems to be working - in the sense that I haven't actually died, and the 0500 shift last week and this (which is obligatory cycling commute due to no public transport at all) I found that I wasn't wheezing at the end of the ride.

I am stuck in Wk4, which is the first week with blocks of a whole 5 minutes of continuous running.  I think I'll be here for a while, as it's not so much the legs or knees (surprisingly since I'm 47) but the breathing.  Peak speed is crap, and it'll be a while before I'm running anything like the full 30 minutes - and it'll be after that that I extend it to the full distance - but it does seem to be working.

So I'm not a runner, but I am running, and it hasn't killed me yet.   

[Dibdib]

I tried the first run in week 2 last night, and my shins were very insistent that I stop after the first couple of running segments.

Shin pain has been the reason I've struggled with running in the past, and I'm no expert but I'm guessing it's down to two things: not enough strength/flexibility in my ankles, and having 16st landing on each foot. The answer to the latter is simple, eat less pies, but any tips for the former?

[Polar Bear]

Do you mean shin splints?   What shoes are you running in and on what type of surfaces?

[L CC]

Shin splints are untrained ankles. Apparently, walking on your heels, lifting your big toes, and do your running on softer surfaces help. It's why the Zombies thing has heel lifts as part of the training.
Any advice with 'magic' in it sounds suss to me, but as this is a new-range-of-movement issue, this seems worth trying.

I however, am off to the physio tomorrow because my ostrich approach to knee pain which I have been pretending is entirely unconnected to running, is now so bad it's affecting my cycling. Barely being able to walk was fine, it hurting when I ride is not.

[Dibdib]

Do you mean shin splints?   What shoes are you running in and on what type of surfaces?

Yup. Proper running shoes on tarmac and slab pavements.

Fboab, thanks for the link and the advice - I'll give all your suggestions a go. Hope the phyio helps you sort your knee 

[Polar Bear]

Ok.   When I ventured out on my first marathon quest in 1988 I suffered splints.   I went for advice and I was advised to start on grass and to get supportive shoes.   

This latter bit of advice was not so great because as you progress your running style will evolve.   You may well find that the shoes you currently have are contributory to the problem although ironically you may well need this type of shoe as you improve.   The biggest change in style is progressing from heel strike to running on the ball or toes.   I found that using a neutral shoe helped show wear patterns which then helped identify where extra support might be needed.   

Might be worth taking advice.   

[citoyen]

What constitutes "supportive" shoes will be different according to the individual's running style. The most sensible thing I've done running-wise was to go to a proper running shop and get a proper gait analysis to determine the right type of shoe for my style.

[Polar Bear]

Yup.   

[citoyen]

You can probably find clues as to whether you're a heel- or toe-striker, and whether you're neutral or pronating by looking at the pattern of wear on the soles of your current running shoes.

Good point about running style evolving. I was a bit of a heel striker at first but I've trained myself out of that habit.

[L CC]

What constitutes "supportive" shoes will be different according to the individual's running style. The most sensible thing I've done running-wise was to go to a proper running shop and get a proper gait analysis to determine the right type of shoe for my style.

Yeah, but there's limited benefit in doing that as a very new runner, because your gait changes as you become more accomplished, no?
It's like telling someone who has just learnt to ride a 2 wheeled bike to get a racing bike fit. You need to, erm, walk before you can run...

[citoyen]

Yeah, but there's limited benefit in doing that as a very new runner, because your gait changes as you become more accomplished, no?

I suppose that in an ideal world where money were no object, you'd buy a pair of beginner's running shoes to suit your begginer's style, then move on to a different pair a few months later. But of course, money is an object for most of us.

Although my current running shoes are excellent, they're far from being a top of the range model, and even then I could only afford them because they were in the end of season sale. Like good bike tyres, good running shoes are very pricey for a consumable that needs frequent replacing.

[mattc]

Yes to fboab's post.

I tend to recommend cheap 2nd-hand bikes to newbies for this reason (plus with bikes there are so many different purposes, but that's for another thread on one of YACF's other 27 boards... ).

The current 'popular' science on shoe fit is to give people neutral shoes with some (not lots) of cushioning. Then see how they get on, and look for extreme gaits (or injuries!) that might need correction/assistance.

This may all change in another 5-10 years.

Running on soft surfaces is definitely a win. Most elites never train on concrete (or even roads) - just tracks/grass/treadmills.

_{/Matt - admitted forefoot evangelist.}

[L CC]

_{/Matt - admitted forefoot evangelist.}

^{/out injured for months}

I can't talk, I just can't see me doing another 2 runs this week for Jantastic, my knee is completely fecked. I can't straighten it without pain.

[mattc]

_{/Matt - admitted forefoot evangelist.}

^{/out injured for months}

I can't talk, I just can't see me doing another 2 runs this week for Jantastic, my knee is completely fecked. I can't straighten it without pain.

I was worse back in my heel-striking days!

+1 to Oranj's points about shoe-choice. Low-drop shoes are in general much cheaper than all the fancy cushioned/support/motion-control stuff. Makes sense; the latter have loads of stuff  - even ignoring the R&D work they must cost more to make.

Anyway, the longer version of my comment:
I'm very much convinced by the FFS philosophy (mainly cos my ankle was just getting worse and worse in the years after I broke both tib+fibs). HOWEVER lots of experts reckon people should stick with whatever they do naturally. The science doesn't seem conclusive in either direction.
Hence my post didn't even suggest anyone switching to forefoot. OK?

(Rewind to the start of this thread if anyone wants a ton of heel vs forefoot debate.)

[mattc]

Yeah, but there's limited benefit in doing that as a very new runner, because your gait changes as you become more accomplished, no?

I suppose that in an ideal world where money were no object, you'd buy a pair of beginner's running shoes to suit your begginer's style, then move on to a different pair a few months later. But of course, money is an object for most of us.

Although my current running shoes are excellent, they're far from being a top of the range model, and even then I could only afford them because they were in the end of season sale. Like good bike tyres, good running shoes are very pricey for a consumable that needs frequent replacing.

All true, but On Balance - and if I was "starting again" - I'd go for the cheap neutral shoes option. Yes, in some ways it's an extra cost, BUT as you say, they do need frequent replacing anyway. If a runner finds he's bought the "wrong" shoes, he'll probably get much of their natural life out of them anyway.
Plus running shoes can be used for many many things. For many other sports, and as "general" shoes. You won't get injured walking to the shops in mis-sold running shoes. [I am not a sports science professional, please don't sue me!]

So they shouldn't have any extra long-term cost.

[L CC]

I'm hardly qualified to judge/comment on gait when mine can only really be accurately described as 'lumbering'.
I'm really disproportionately pissed off this morning, I want to go do parkrun and can't/shouldn't.

[mattc]

As you posted upthread; one of the benefits of running is that when you're injured you can still volunteer!

Anyway, sounds like a day off is The Right Thing. Do some strength stuff and go for a bike ride 

[Polar Bear]

Long before my schedule allows, I could not resist trying to run a little during my last two sessions.   It is clear that my ageing but vgc Asics 2070's are too firm under my arches.   I also got 'tired toe', aches in the toes due to them being overworked somewhat, or more accurately, not used for some years. 

Waking up those muscles, ligaments and tendons needs to be done gradually to avoid injury.*

I think that I might go and get some basic neutral shoes.

*  Says the man who suffered lateral collateral and anterior cruciate ligament damage in 1898 1989.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

You are older than you look.

[Polar Bear]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!   

1989...

[citoyen]

No parkrun today for the second week in a row - haven't run at all for 11 days, and the only cycling I've done is the short ride to and from the station. Just can't shake this feckin' cold that's making me sound like a 40-a-day Marlboro man.