Author Topic: Strava  (Read 25197 times)

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
  • Chartered accountant in 5 different decades
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Re: Strava
« Reply #250 on: May 23, 2020, 05:34:33 am »
In the UK, whatever GPS mapping software I use, I tend to do route checking using Bing Maps, because it has an Ordnance Survey mode, which brings up the beloved Ordnance Survey mapping style I grew up with - if it's a yellow road it will be surfaced (at least to the local standard) and if its a white road it probably won't be.  And if I'm really worried, I go to Google Streetview as a final check.  (And if it's not on Google Streetview is very unlikely to be tarmac). 

I'm not bothered by how well I do on segments compared with others.  I would have been when I was younger, but now realise that my competitive instinct would just have me hammering up climbs and turning a nice ride into a miserable sufferfest.  When I need that (in normal times) I get it from my club runs.

And I've had too many electronic failures and am too suspicious of software companies holding my data to ransom to trust my logbook to one of them. 
Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 170 (metric) 520 (furlongs)  112 (nautical miles)

Strava
« Reply #251 on: May 23, 2020, 10:29:53 am »
I have had a go with the new strava route planner. It looks prettier than the old one, but seems a nightmare. I will be stopping my free trial.

Oh? In what way? It seems to be work just as well as it ever did for me. Zoom in/out with a keyboard shortcut is a bit aggressive, but otherwise, the only thing I notice is my veloviewer extension doesn't work, and the map is a different colour. Otherwise, it works just fine.

J
It seemed to be sending me down a lot of off bridleways despite the preferred paved surfaces being ticked. It also seemed very reluctant to allow dragging to alter the route - it was very jerky. I am using chrome.

Then today, planning an mtb route when I did want to go down bridleways quite a major one was not showing on the map. I switched to satellite view and clicked on the bridleway and it quite happily routed down the invisible route, so it knows it is there.

Edit: ok the latter does show up when I zoom right in but even then it is very faint.

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Pingu

  • Put away those fiery biscuits!
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Re: Strava
« Reply #252 on: May 23, 2020, 10:43:26 am »
...if it's a yellow road it will be surfaced (at least to the local standard) and if its a white road it probably won't be...

I've had some excellent comedy off-roading experiences recently on yellow roads.

Re: Strava
« Reply #253 on: May 23, 2020, 10:52:04 am »
I have had a go with the new strava route planner. It looks prettier than the old one, but seems a nightmare. I will be stopping my free trial.

Oh? In what way? It seems to be work just as well as it ever did for me. Zoom in/out with a keyboard shortcut is a bit aggressive, but otherwise, the only thing I notice is my veloviewer extension doesn't work, and the map is a different colour. Otherwise, it works just fine.

J
For example in the picture below trying to grab missing vv square near henton near chinnor it has swerved off the road taking a route that does not seem to be a right of way on o/s




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Re: Strava
« Reply #255 on: May 23, 2020, 11:08:39 am »
That is a footpath: https://www.bing.com/maps?osid=9f0b569b-7571-4d34-acc1-abc156c35e73&cp=51.717175~-0.898939&lvl=16&style=s&v=2&sV=2&form=S00027
Yes, I just saw that too. It is definitely set to bike and preference to paved. A bit of a nightmare if it is leaving perfectly good roads to (illegally) use footpaths.


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Re: Strava
« Reply #256 on: May 23, 2020, 12:06:31 pm »
That's not good.  Curiousity overcame me so I looked deeper ... it seems that Google Maps and RideWithGps only want to take you down the footpath if you choose the "walking" option (and Garmin also if you choose "running").  So, I thought I'd see what Strava does if I set it to running...any guesses ?

That's right - it DID NOT use the footpath ! 

S2L

Re: Strava
« Reply #257 on: May 23, 2020, 12:13:36 pm »
Jesus... give these 4 quid a month to the guys... they've offered you a free service for years and in return you are trying to skimp on the monthly cost of a pint of ale?

It's either subscription or it's a feed full of advertising like in Facebook, I'd rather pay some small change to avoid the latter

Re: Strava
« Reply #258 on: May 23, 2020, 12:26:49 pm »
I'm just wary about paying now because of they are struggling then I'll be paying into something that may well disappear.

Which I know I'm not helping their chances by not paying.
Miles cycled 2014 = 3551.5 (Target 7300 :()
Miles cycled 2013 = 6141.4
Miles cycled 2012 = 4038.1

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Strava
« Reply #259 on: May 23, 2020, 12:27:42 pm »

Hmmm, Interesting routing issues. I wonder if that's an issue with the router, or the way it's put in the underlying OSM data...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Strava
« Reply #260 on: May 23, 2020, 12:31:20 pm »
Jesus... give these 4 quid a month to the guys... they've offered you a free service for years and in return you are trying to skimp on the monthly cost of a pint of ale?

It's either subscription or it's a feed full of advertising like in Facebook, I'd rather pay some small change to avoid the latter

That's confused me, coming straight after a discussion about a "paid for" feature not working ?

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Strava
« Reply #261 on: May 23, 2020, 12:33:23 pm »
I'm just wary about paying now because of they are struggling then I'll be paying into something that may well disappear.
Who says they are struggling? They have been losing money for the years, like most other internet companies. Doesn't mean they are going to disappear any time soon. Just seems like DC Rainmaker taking comments out of context and making up a story.

Re: Strava
« Reply #262 on: May 23, 2020, 12:43:40 pm »

Hmmm, Interesting routing issues. I wonder if that's an issue with the router, or the way it's put in the underlying OSM data...

J
Looking at the Osm data it looks fine. This was not the only instance, there were several short cuts down footpaths. I think it will be a fairly quick fix for them. As said above the run/bike flag seems to reversed at points.

Temporarily I am using my own software that now shows my vv squares on an o/s map and does routing using Osm vectors. It too is not without problems as it is a bit cumbersome to edit routes and when I generated my vv squares from my downloaded strava archive, I have 0.3% less than officially on vv, due possibly to rounding differences.

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Strava
« Reply #263 on: May 23, 2020, 12:54:36 pm »

Looking at the Osm data it looks fine. This was not the only instance, there were several short cuts down footpaths. I think it will be a fairly quick fix for them. As said above the run/bike flag seems to reversed at points.

Temporarily I am using my own software that now shows my vv squares on an o/s map and does routing using Osm vectors. It too is not without problems as it is a bit cumbersome to edit routes and when I generated my vv squares from my downloaded strava archive, I have 0.3% less than officially on vv, due possibly to rounding differences.

It may also be that strava is using the heatmap, and enough people have ignored the fact that you shouldn't cycle down that footpath. I've had this with a few places where it's no cycling, but if you check the heatmap it's used a lot.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Strava
« Reply #264 on: May 23, 2020, 12:56:21 pm »

Looking at the Osm data it looks fine. This was not the only instance, there were several short cuts down footpaths. I think it will be a fairly quick fix for them. As said above the run/bike flag seems to reversed at points.

Temporarily I am using my own software that now shows my vv squares on an o/s map and does routing using Osm vectors. It too is not without problems as it is a bit cumbersome to edit routes and when I generated my vv squares from my downloaded strava archive, I have 0.3% less than officially on vv, due possibly to rounding differences.

It may also be that strava is using the heatmap, and enough people have ignored the fact that you shouldn't cycle down that footpath. I've had this with a few places where it's no cycling, but if you check the heatmap it's used a lot.

J
That would not explain it using the road rather than the footpath when set to “run”


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quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Strava
« Reply #265 on: May 23, 2020, 12:57:40 pm »
That would not explain it using the road rather than the footpath when set to “run”

Route planning is Hard™...

Yeah, I'm out of reasons why it does weird shit. Sorry.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Strava
« Reply #266 on: May 23, 2020, 01:05:36 pm »

Looking at the Osm data it looks fine. This was not the only instance, there were several short cuts down footpaths. I think it will be a fairly quick fix for them. As said above the run/bike flag seems to reversed at points.

Temporarily I am using my own software that now shows my vv squares on an o/s map and does routing using Osm vectors. It too is not without problems as it is a bit cumbersome to edit routes and when I generated my vv squares from my downloaded strava archive, I have 0.3% less than officially on vv, due possibly to rounding differences.

It may also be that strava is using the heatmap, and enough people have ignored the fact that you shouldn't cycle down that footpath. I've had this with a few places where it's no cycling, but if you check the heatmap it's used a lot.

This is the killer feature of the Strava route editor for me.  It's not that it's a particularly nice editor, it's that popularity mode makes the same sort of routing decisions that The Kind Of Cyclists Who Use Strava™ tend to make.  Which has a different and frequently quite useful set of flaws to the more common shortest-legal-route or avoiding-major-roads algorithms.

Yes, it's going to be biased towards main road commuting routes (which is sometimes useful, sometimes the opposite), but it's excellent at avoiding the worst Sustraps[1], while taking off-road routes that actually work, and crucially, it knows about those useful pedestrian-mode cut-throughs in a way most editors simply don't.



[1] ©2020 Barakta
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Strava
« Reply #267 on: May 23, 2020, 01:10:21 pm »
This is the killer feature of the Strava route editor for me.  It's not that it's a particularly nice editor, it's that popularity mode makes the sort of routing decisions that The Kind Of Cyclists Who Use Strava tend to make.  Which has a different and frequently quite useful set of flaws to the more common shortest-legal-route or avoiding-major-roads algorithms.

Yeah, this does lead to entertaining issues. You get some really big hot spots on the heat map and think "ooh i can cycle here" so you plot your route along the motorway, assuming there must be some sort of cycle path there... the you discover the Giro went between 2 junctions of that motorway, with it closed off. They all uploaded to Strava, and the 200 riders makes a nice big hot spot...

One feature that I find I've made a request for to every cycle route planner is an "avoid stairs" option. Strava, RwGPS, Komoot, all of them have taken me down stairs at one point or another.

J

--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Strava
« Reply #268 on: May 23, 2020, 01:18:42 pm »
Yeah, this does lead to entertaining issues. You get some really big hot spots on the heat map and think "ooh i can cycle here" so you plot your route along the motorway, assuming there must be some sort of cycle path there... the you discover the Giro went between 2 junctions of that motorway, with it closed off. They all uploaded to Strava, and the 200 riders makes a nice big hot spot...

Do I still have a QOM on Coventry Ring Road?  Same sort of issue...



Quote
One feature that I find I've made a request for to every cycle route planner is an "avoid stairs" option. Strava, RwGPS, Komoot, all of them have taken me down stairs at one point or another.

Yes, I've made that feature request to the council a few times, too.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

S2L

Re: Strava
« Reply #269 on: May 23, 2020, 02:49:55 pm »
I'm just wary about paying now because of they are struggling then I'll be paying into something that may well disappear.

Which I know I'm not helping their chances by not paying.

Pay by the month then... it costs a little more but such risk is minimised... unless you are too afraid of losing 6 quid.

To be brutally honest, since we are in an Audax forum, a (small) number of organisers have cancelled events due to Covid-19 without offering a refund as an option, how's that different?
When you pay someone in return for a service, there is always the risk of losing your money

Re: Strava
« Reply #270 on: May 23, 2020, 03:23:35 pm »
I'm just wary about paying now because of they are struggling then I'll be paying into something that may well disappear.
Who says they are struggling? They have been losing money for the years, like most other internet companies. Doesn't mean they are going to disappear any time soon. Just seems like DC Rainmaker taking comments out of context and making up a story.

With a likely recession coming, VC funding will increasingly involve having a plan for profit or exit. Maybe even one that's not quite as speculative as before. I assume that the previous premium features being paid model wasn't getting the right numbers.

Re: Strava
« Reply #271 on: May 23, 2020, 03:29:25 pm »
To my surprise, the Global Heatmap is still available in the free version.  Also, while Training Log has gone, Training Calendar is still there (I always thought they were performing pretty much the same function). 

So, while I have no problem paying for it, the free version seems to give me virtually everything that I have used in the past.

Re: Strava
« Reply #272 on: May 23, 2020, 03:41:57 pm »
With a likely recession coming, VC funding will increasingly involve having a plan for profit or exit. Maybe even one that's not quite as speculative as before. I assume that the previous premium features being paid model wasn't getting the right numbers.

As a commercial venture, it has to make money at some point so I expect it has always been in their business plan to try to monetise more of their subscribers when they felt they had enough of them signed up and hooked on their product.

Their last investment round was in 2017 so they may well need more funding in the near future.  If they can demonstrate a clearer path to profit, or even actual profits, based on their subscriptions, their valuation will be higher.  Of course, if they convert fewer than they expected, it will be bad news for their valuation.

This is an interesting article, from just after their last fundraising round:
https://www.businessinsider.com/interview-strava-ceo-james-quarles-social-network-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

What it say is that they then planned to transform it from an activity tracker to a social network.  Presumably that was in part at least to make it more sticky so that people would be more likely to pay for it.
Interesting comments on its two other revenue sources as well (from the likes of TFL for planning purposes and partners like Rapha for challenges)

Re: Strava
« Reply #273 on: May 23, 2020, 06:42:11 pm »
With a likely recession coming, VC funding will increasingly involve having a plan for profit or exit. Maybe even one that's not quite as speculative as before. I assume that the previous premium features being paid model wasn't getting the right numbers.

As a commercial venture, it has to make money at some point so I expect it has always been in their business plan to try to monetise more of their subscribers when they felt they had enough of them signed up and hooked on their product.

Their last investment round was in 2017 so they may well need more funding in the near future.  If they can demonstrate a clearer path to profit, or even actual profits, based on their subscriptions, their valuation will be higher.  Of course, if they convert fewer than they expected, it will be bad news for their valuation.

This is an interesting article, from just after their last fundraising round:
https://www.businessinsider.com/interview-strava-ceo-james-quarles-social-network-2017-12?r=US&IR=T

What it say is that they then planned to transform it from an activity tracker to a social network.  Presumably that was in part at least to make it more sticky so that people would be more likely to pay for it.
Interesting comments on its two other revenue sources as well (from the likes of TFL for planning purposes and partners like Rapha for challenges)
“As a commercial venture, it has to make money at some point” what a quaint notion.


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FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Strava
« Reply #274 on: May 23, 2020, 07:35:34 pm »
...if it's a yellow road it will be surfaced (at least to the local standard) and if its a white road it probably won't be...

I've had some excellent comedy off-roading experiences recently on yellow roads.

Just because it's an adopted public road doesn't mean the council are maintaining it to the standard they demand roads be in before they will adopt them!


Hmmm, Interesting routing issues. I wonder if that's an issue with the router, or the way it's put in the underlying OSM data...

J

R_nger's investigation suggests to me it's the way they're using OSM data.

OSM may do whacky shit when set to cycling liek send you into bus stops and parking areas, but I've never had it send me down a track marked as a footpath even though it's perfectly legit to do so in these parts.
My cock up in Ramboulliet forest that saw IroIroMono and I wading through sand when there was a sealed path about 100m to the west was nothing to do with OSM maping and everything to do with me remapping a section after it in walking mode.

It's either subscription or it's a feed full of advertising like in Facebook, I'd rather pay some small change to avoid the latter

For a system that's basically a pusjotter for cycling/running based willy waving, oddly I'd prefer adverts, that I generally gloss over

I'm just wary about paying now because of they are struggling then I'll be paying into something that may well disappear.
Who says they are struggling? They have been losing money for the years, like most other internet companies. Doesn't mean they are going to disappear any time soon. Just seems like DC Rainmaker taking comments out of context and making up a story.

With a likely recession coming, VC funding will increasingly involve having a plan for profit or exit. Maybe even one that's not quite as speculative as before. I assume that the previous premium features being paid model wasn't getting the right numbers.

My reading of the announcement was basically; we're betting on you, its our last roll of the dice to make this product viable despite the fact we've driven people away with shite paid for features that our competitors give away for free.

“As a commercial venture, it has to make money at some point” what a quaint notion.

As a commercial venture, it has to produce something that (enough) people are willing to pay for.

I spent a couple of years wondering why I was paying for it, and this hasn't changed that.

I spent more than that wondering if I was willing to pay for RWGPS and ended up deciding I was willing to pay for one or the other.
RWGPS won that.



I presume Strava monetise the sponsored challenges in some way.
Giving Le Col and Strava etc free advertising wouldn't exactly be clever...