Author Topic: etrex 20 frustrations  (Read 6614 times)

etrex 20 frustrations
« on: April 28, 2012, 04:06:53 pm »
Hi All

I've owned an extrex 20 for a week now.

I have managed to get it to tell me where I've been and upload it to Strava or Garmin Connect.

I have managed to download a track from bikely for an upcoming audax (http://www.bikely.com/maps/bike-path/Severn-Across-Audax-2009)

Having looked around at instruction I uploaded this track to bikehike, and downloaded it as a route.
This route was truncated about a third of the way around the track, and I found it consisted of 3493 trackpoints (does this mean the etrex 20 can handle 1000?)

So I went to options and reduced it to 500. This still looked ok on bikehike, so I downloaded it and transferred to the etrex. Now when I open the route on the etrex it gives me the shortest route between the start and finish. About 200m.

From reading Frankly Frankie's documents I think I need to add waypoints? And everyone seemed to be using MapSource for this. So with some difficulty I got MapSource installed. This is as far as I have got. I am using OSM and cannot get a map to display in MapSource. I don't even know how you are meant to get one to display, so I can try.

Am I on the right track? (excuse the pun). Should I try something completely different?

I am getting really frustrated trying to do this. I'm sure once you know how it's really simple, but it seems almost intentionally difficult to begin with. Please help!

By the way, the severn across track displayed fine. So in the worst case scenario I will just try to follow the line.

Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2012, 05:51:48 pm »
I've now got Mapset Toolkit as well, in an effort to get the map onto MapSource.

All fine except for TYP files. I have no TYP file, and do not know what one looks like.

Franky's document here http://www.aukadia.net/gps/lwg_37.htm says to ignore this line, but if I try that it just tells me I need to select the folder.

"Select a cgpsmapper/cpreview folder"

?

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2012, 06:17:33 pm »
You ask many questions, and they all have many answers, grasshopper.

It's not as simple as it first appears.

On the Garmin, a 'Route' is handy, because it tells you how to get to the destination, via various intermediate points.   But on circular routes which start and stop at the same place, or routes which cross over themselves, it confuses the heck out of them.   That's why it's trying to route you straight to the destination, 200m away.

Make 2 routes: and 'out', and a 'back'.

Regarding the number of routepoints and trackpoints, you could do worse than reading here:
http://www.aukweb.net/services/lwg_1.htm


Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2012, 07:01:10 pm »
Hi Feanor

I hope it's no less simple than it seems, because it does not appear very simple.

So are you saying that if the route doesn't end up near the start, it will use the trackpoints, but if they are near each other then it ignores them and heads straight for the finish? Surely if I have waypoints or viapoints then it is forced to follow these?

But inserting them is beyond me at the moment  :(

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2012, 07:14:35 pm »
I'm afraid it's significantly less simple than it seems.
It really is not as simple as downloading a GPX and that's it, I'm afraid.

You need to read the link I gave, and the associated pages, to get a handle on the difference between User Waypoints, trackpoints and routepoints.

But the bottom line is that for a 'route', the device attempt to get you to your destination.   With a circular route, that may be 200m away.
The simplest solution is to create routes: 1 outbound, and 1 back.

In general, I'd not use a downloaded GPX as a route on a circular route.
As a Track, to simply display in the background, yes,ok.
But I'd make my own Route(s).


Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2012, 07:33:57 pm »
But if I'm trying to go around a large circle, and make an outbound and a return leg, surely it will send me through the centre to the destination (end of route 1) instead of around the circumference (through controls).

If it is impossible to tell the GPS specific points you want to go via then you would need a separate route between each control wouldn't  you?

I have already read a lot of Frankie's very useful pages, including the one you linked to. They imply that you can tell the GPS points that you want to go through on the way to the destination.

I am still stuck on Mapset Toolkit giving me the error "Select a cgpsmapper/cpreview folder"

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2012, 07:37:57 pm »
Let me try to explain the behaviour of a 'route' on most Garmin devices, so you can understand better:

A 'route' is a series of waypoints ( bythat, I mean either User Waypoints, or Routepoints ), which should be navigated in order, to reach a final destination.
It is assumed that the destination is 'far away', ie not a circular route.
The machine will Auto-route between the waypoints by default, so you need enough waypoints to constrain the route.

So let's consider how it works...

Let's assume a route has been created, consisting of 10 waypoints, in more-or-less a straight line.
We are navigating along it, and we are now part-way between wp4 and wp5.
The machine is therfore currently auto-routing to wp5.
The road is closed, we turn off and follow the diversion.
The machine will re-calculate the route to wp5.
It will continue to re-calculate the route to wp5 as we follow the diversion.
The diversion takes us a long and winding road, and drops us back onto our original route near wp8, missing wp5,6,7.
What should the machine do?

Should it continue insisting we return to wp5?
Or should it try to route us to our ultimate destination?

Well, how it works is this:
It will continue to try to return you to wp5, untill you actually re-join the route at a later place ( near wp8 ).   The moment you 'touch' the route again, it sees this, and then re-calculates to the next wp towards your destination, wp8 in this case.

This is a sensible behaviour for most situations, but not for routes that cross, or share legs etc.

Try to consider the routes you are creating with this in mind.


fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2012, 07:40:09 pm »
For getting OSM maps in MapSource, I recommend this website: http://garmin.openstreetmap.nl/
Just pick a country, and it will give you link to download a file named osm_routable_mapsource.exe. Just run, that, and it will install the maps in Mapsource. No need to fiddle about with MapsetToolkit.

Also, I would suggest you try Garmin Basecamp instead of MapSource. I think it is generally easier to use, and makes more sense, and is easier to transfer things to and from the etrex. The installer from the website above will also install the maps in Basecamp.

Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2012, 11:42:15 am »
OK I have managed to install Basecamp and it shows my map on it. Progress!

I will try making a route in it tonight.

Thanks for the reply Fearnor, I will make sure the route doesn't cross itself near the start. I think this may have been the problem with the route I downloaded from bikely.

Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2012, 03:06:38 pm »
For what it's worth I've never had a problem with a route crossing in a figure of 8 style - my device (Legend) has always coped with this (I use routes in "off-road" navigation format).  I have had a problem in it wanting me to go the wrong way round, but once away from the start a simple off/on routine soon corrects that.  I tend to avoid it by putting the first routepoint closer to the start than the last one.

Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #10 on: May 04, 2012, 10:51:03 am »
Morning All

Like pangolin I've also recently purchased an Etrex 20 and am a GPS virgin.
After faffing aboutwith OSM, Bike Hike and Bike Route Toaster have taken the following action :

1. Per Fuaran's post up thread have downloaded Basecamp and installed maps on this and the GPS form the OSM website provided

2. Installed the software update form Garmin so now have version 2.70

3. Taken info from the AUK GPS site and followed the Etrex basic set up guide. (Written by Frankly Frank I believe). This has not only got the thing set up correctly but has also been useful to gain a bit of a tutorial in how it works.

I made up a couple of short test routes on Basecamp. These came up on the map ok and am getting good turn insructions and nice big arrows on the map but no proximity alarms so......

4. Followed arallsop's advice on the 'Caution Audaxers' thread further down in the GPS section and changed route settings to off road and auto for alerts.

After a couple of tests walking to the station for work and back I now have alert sounds when approaching turns at about 80 metres good clear intstructions and a nice white arrow to follow on the map. Perfect! Am riding 80km home tonight with route loaded so will see what happens!

Just like to say thanks to the people who not only have the patience to go off and learn about these things but also are willing to share their knowledge with ludites like me!

Cheers

Chris

Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2012, 12:05:08 pm »
Also regarding the earlier circular route cunundrum I made up a circular route. At first the Etrex got a bit fuddled with the start/ finish being close together and wasn't sure which way to direct. Once you start out on the route (200 - 300 yards from start) and it gets away from the start/ finish it seems so sort itself out and starts to follow the desired route without problems. :thumbsup:

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2012, 06:07:56 pm »
After a couple of tests walking to the station for work and back I now have alert sounds when approaching turns at about 80 metres good clear intstructions and a nice white arrow to follow on the map. Perfect! Am riding 80km home tonight with route loaded so will see what happens!

My impression (with an E30) is that, with the turn warnings on the 'auto' setting, it doesn't work too well at walking speeds, often failing to bleep even if I walk the thing out to the middle of the junction.  Obviously it's possible to make it work by opting for a manual offset of 50m say. 
However at cycling speeds it seems fine on the auto setting.

Can I just mention something regarding the links upthread.  Pages hosted on the AUK server such as
http://www.aukweb.net/services/lwg_1.htm
are hung over from the old website and are no longer maintained.  The current AUK site has this link to the index of GPS pages hosted under my own domain
http://www.aukadia.net/gps/
where the above page appears as
http://www.aukadia.net/gps/lwg_1.htm
the point being that this is a more recently revised version, with some corrections and (I hope) some more insight, same applies to some of the other linked pages.  NB also that many of these pages are more slanted towards the older Etrex Legend and Vista models, and Mapsource (which was supplied software with these models), and not so much towards the newer types.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2012, 09:07:15 am »
Thanks for the tips all.

I am making progress. I downloaded basecamp as suggested, and put the track into that. Then I made it a route, whittling the points down to 250, which didn't truncate it.

Seems to have worked, and shows up as the full route on my garmin. Result!

A question about waypoints. Am I right in saying all the points in the route are either trackpoints or viapoints?

Is it possible to make controls waypoints so that 'distance to next' shows the distance to the next waypoint? Or am I asking too much. I did try changing the points at controls to waypoints on basecamp, but it seemed to just create them as independent waypoints, separate to the route.

Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2012, 01:12:55 pm »
Just when you think you're worked it out...

Having it set to off road creates a route made up of straight lines between the points, and doesn't seem to acknowledge that I have passed the ones I have passed.

Set it to on road (so the route actually follows the road - even the correct road assuming enough points) and it works, but only with 50 points.

What do people do??? Surely if it's set to off road and doesn't acknowledge my passing then I might as well use a track? Or should it be acknowledging my passing each point and I've done something wrong?

I don't think I've ever had to work so hard to use something I've paid for.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #15 on: May 10, 2012, 01:37:44 pm »
What do people do???

With Routes - everyone does it differently.  That's why the 'safe' recommendation is to start off by using Tracks.
Personally I use Off Road, and every viapoint does generate a 'distance to next' and (unless there is a fault condition) the GPS flips to the next one as the distance countdown hits zero.

That said, I've never used Basecamp.

A point to bear in mind is that if you opt for the Follow Road method, the optimal placing of the 'via' points is quite different. 
Off Road, obviously your points are placed at significant junctions and turns.  Follow Road works better if you place points on road between junctions, not on them.  And you need fewer points obviously - try spacing them approx 5km apart on average.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #16 on: May 10, 2012, 01:54:13 pm »
Thanks Frankie

Using a track, does the unit count down to the next 'via' point on the track? I was under the impression that with a track you just got a line on the map and you had to concentrate on staying on the line.

The follow road route I made around the office isn't working as well as I thought. The magenta line snaps to the roads once it's calculated - fine. But then I start walking around it. Nothing. No indication it knows I'm on the route. No instructions at junctions. The pointer and distance to next seemed to be telling me to go to the first point on the route, which I walked over twice.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #17 on: May 10, 2012, 04:28:45 pm »
That just sounds like the old circular route problem.

For simplicity - do not construct 'circular' Routes, ie ones that finish at or near the place where they start.
Instead, break it down into two Routes, 'out' and 'back'.  The GPS can hold 50 Routes so storage isn't a problem.
That will solve your 'distance to next' issues in both Follow and Off Road modes.

Using Tracks - yes the E20 can follow a Track with visible countdowns to any Waypoints along the way - or close to (not necessarily absolutely on) the Track.  It all looks very like a Follow Road Route, but without so much verbose instruction as a Route would generate.  They must be 'proper' Waypoints, aka 'User Waypoints', and obviously you have to plan it this way.

For example you could plan a Track and then drop a few Waypoints at significant turns, controls etc.  You can do all this in BikeHike for example (adding 'Coursepoints' - they download as Waypoints), and download it all in one gpx file.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
    • Fuchsiaphile
Re: etrex 20 frustrations
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2012, 05:22:42 pm »
It's difficult to describe the circular Route thing in plain English - basically what it boils down to is that if you show a Garmin an obvious shortcut, it will go into 'helpful' mode  ::-) and take it.

I put it like this:
In any position along a Route, the 'next' point must be closer than any subsequent point.  Or there is a good chance the Garmin will shortcut to the closer subsequent point. 
This applies in Follow Road, Off Road and (on the E20 and E30) the GPXX route method that you may read about.
(Edge users, AIUI, can beat this trap by using the GPXX method.)

That 'rule' reads a bit like gobbledygook, but on any approximately linear 'from here to there' type of Route is sorts itself out like that automatically.  So the simplest thing IMO is not to fight it, but to only use linear Routes.  On events, either one Route per leg, or at least one to the halfway point, and another back.  Loading a new  Route at a control is not exactly a big deal.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.