Author Topic: Dauphiné Libéré 2012  (Read 6380 times)

Steve GT

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Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #50 on: June 08, 2012, 09:30:34 am »
Just read that Evans rode the last 48 kilometers without anything to drink as he lost his water bottle just after the 5 Km mark.
Could explain the big difference in their times.

Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #51 on: June 08, 2012, 10:00:40 am »
but he might have to do more than just defend his lead (assuming he has one) in the mountains...

That, for me, is the big question about Wiggins. He's not really a grimper. He's shown that he can hang in there (unless it gets really tough) but I don't think I've ever seen him go on the offensive in the mountains. Maybe he's been working on that too. Perhaps we'll see in the next few days?

Wiggins is the pursuiter par excellence, so we know he's got around 4 minutes at between 560 and 580 watts,
http://www.theroar.com.au/2012/04/11/sidwells-why-is-tom-boonen-so-good/
He's a big bloke, so he can't afford to have carry any weight which doesn't contribute to his ability to do that, so he won't be able to 'jump' because he hasn't got the fast twitch resources. His team pursuit experience and his low frontal area to power means that he will thrive in windy conditions. He'll do well if he can get into a break caused by crosswinds and on headwind climbs. Sky have also been doing a lot of work on heat acclimatisation in the Canaries. Bradley seems to have found his own, somewhat idiosyncratic, voice. It could come down to a battle of nerves between him and Cadel, which might be amusing.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #52 on: June 08, 2012, 10:11:32 am »
I reckon there was a bit of a non-performance by Evans but even so, it really marks Wiggins as a serious contender.

To be fair, Evans did a pretty decent time by any normal standards. Heck, Tony Martin did a very good time by any normal standards, but reports of Wiggo being in "the form of his life" are clearly not overstating the case.

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As for the implications for Cavendish, I don't really see alarm bells. But then, unlike many pundits, I don't think there's a problem anyway with the 2 interests of yellow and green. I think Sky can handle both, allocating resource as and when and according to circumstance.

I agree. A long leadout train is a luxury, not a necessity for Cav. Though I do suspect that part of the reason he was so intent on winning the red jersey in the Giro is that he knew the focus would be on Wiggins in the Tour.

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Sure, Wiggins won't be riding in a lead out train and Cavendish won't be riding support in the mountains but outside that, I don't see a conflict of interests.

Yep. Cav will have Bernie to look after him through the tough bits. The likes of Uran, Froome and Porte will contribute to his leadout in the first week, then switch to climbing domestique duties when the hit the mountains. Something like that, anyway.

d.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #53 on: June 08, 2012, 10:13:22 am »
He doesn't attack, he just ups the pace till most fall off his wheel. Indurain style.
The next few days will show what his training regime have given him in terms of top end high mountain ability.

Yup, Cath Wiggins was comparing him to Indurain on Twitter last night. It's a fair comparison. And the tactic almost worked in the Vuelta last year - fortunately for him, the Tour has nothing as tough as the Angliru...

d.

GrahamG

  • Babies bugger bicycling
Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #54 on: June 08, 2012, 10:14:42 am »
I'm not normally a pessimist, however it's a little while now until the tour and he's got to hang on to this form (unless he hasn't peaked quite yet), hold it for three full weeks of racing etc. etc. I don't think we should get too excited yet as it could be that he's over-cooked it early on instead of arriving at the start.  Just re-gurgitating what Jens Voigt said via twitter and it makes sense - backed up by the views of experienced pros and the historical results of Daupine vs TDF standings.
Brummie in exile (may it forever be so)

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #55 on: June 08, 2012, 10:16:46 am »
Yes, we all know how Indurain managed to do that.

I don't think Indurain's achievements were purely down to medical assistance. Physically, he was a freak. Besides, he was competing against riders who were doing the same, so the playing field was relatively level - as we like to think it is now...

d.

Andrew

Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #56 on: June 08, 2012, 10:17:36 am »
Just read that Evans rode the last 48 kilometers without anything to drink as he lost his water bottle just after the 5 Km mark.

I think that happened to Chavanel as well.


Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #57 on: June 08, 2012, 10:24:05 am »
I would have thought that the safest place to be at the finish of flat stages would be in the lead-out train, as well as providing Brad with ideal top-up training. I can't see any reason why he wouldn't be on the front of it at some stage in the final kilometres. He'll need some time at his threshold, and no-one will allow him a lone break.

Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #58 on: June 08, 2012, 10:27:14 am »
Just read that Evans rode the last 48 kilometers without anything to drink as he lost his water bottle just after the 5 Km mark.

I think that happened to Chavanel as well.

But why oh why should that matter in such a short (1 hour) race? Surely sensible pre-hydration is all that is required.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #59 on: June 08, 2012, 10:36:58 am »
Just re-gurgitating what Jens Voigt said via twitter and it makes sense - backed up by the views of experienced pros and the historical results of Daupine vs TDF standings.

...and Cath replied to Voigt by saying that he hasn't peaked yet. She may be biased but the evidence of his performances seems to back up the claim - apart from that show of strength yesterday, he's hardly pushed himself in the Dauphiné so far, has he?

As DM says, today's and tomorrow's stages will be the real test of where he is in terms of Tour preparation.

Sky have shown this year that they're treating every race they enter as a proper race, not a warm-up for some other race. It's all part of their training plan, innit. I think they know what they're doing.

d.

Andrew

Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #60 on: June 08, 2012, 10:47:53 am »
I would have thought that the safest place to be at the finish of flat stages would be in the lead-out train

Agreed, sort of. Certainly, any yellow jersey holders wants to finish (on a sprint stage) at the front of the peloton so as not to loose time to anyone. So by definition, behind the sprinters. So it follows that that could equally put them as a part of a lead out train. They needn't take long turns on the front but I don't necessarily see a reason why they couldn't take part.

Cycling seems to have these 'you do things this way' sort of rituals (very French btw ;) ) and sometimes I can't quite work out why, so I don't really see why a GC contender can't be in a train. Certainly, as agreed here, it seems to suit their purposes vis-a-vis the finishing position. 

Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #61 on: June 08, 2012, 10:51:40 am »
I'm not normally a pessimist, however it's a little while now until the tour and he's got to hang on to this form (unless he hasn't peaked quite yet)

There's an article on Cycling News all about Wiggo's training methods regarding peaking etc...
Those wonderful norks are never far from my thoughts, oh yeah!

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #62 on: June 08, 2012, 11:00:48 am »
There was a good one in the Guardian too:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/may/23/bradley-wiggins-tour-de-france?CMP=twt_gu

And I believe a similar piece in the Telegraph. His training regime this year has not exactly been kept secret!

d.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #63 on: June 08, 2012, 11:14:34 am »
Yes, we all know how Indurain managed to do that.

I don't think Indurain's achievements were purely down to medical assistance. Physically, he was a freak. Besides, he was competing against riders who were doing the same, so the playing field was relatively level - as we like to think it is now...

d.

I did not say that Indurain's performances were purely due to dope but it was hardly a level playing field then and probably still isn't.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

mattc

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Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #64 on: June 08, 2012, 11:19:26 am »
I would have thought that the safest place to be at the finish of flat stages would be in the lead-out train

Agreed, sort of. Certainly, any yellow jersey holders wants to finish (on a sprint stage) at the front of the peloton so as not to loose time to anyone. So by definition, behind the sprinters. So it follows that that could equally put them as a part of a lead out train. They needn't take long turns on the front but I don't necessarily see a reason why they couldn't take part.

Cycling seems to have these 'you do things this way' sort of rituals (very French btw ;) ) and sometimes I can't quite work out why, so I don't really see why a GC contender can't be in a train. Certainly, as agreed here, it seems to suit their purposes vis-a-vis the finishing position.
Everyone wants to be in the front. So it takes effort to get there and stay there. The various sprinter teams are fighting to get up there with their guy, and everyone else wants to be up there to be the 'right' side of any crash. It takes much less effort to just drift toward the back over the last (say) 5km. Saving effort is important for GC - every turn you do on the front harms your chances on the next big mountain stage.

This much I know as a layman - people that have actually competed in this sort of thing may know more ...
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #65 on: June 08, 2012, 11:30:27 am »
Tony Martin's role in the HTC lead-out train is of interest. Working for Cavendish did him no harm in 2009. Some reckon that he's the likeliest competitor to Wiggins if conditions are favourable. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/othersports/cycling/8834581/Tour-de-France-2012-route-will-favour-Bradley-Wiggins-but-Tony-Martin-may-also-benefit-from-three-time-trials.html
Martin is supposed to be targeting the Olympic TT, but that might be a cover.

Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #66 on: June 08, 2012, 11:47:27 am »
Yes, we all know how Indurain managed to do that.

I don't think Indurain's achievements were purely down to medical assistance. Physically, he was a freak. Besides, he was competing against riders who were doing the same, so the playing field was relatively level - as we like to think it is now...

d.
I did not say that Indurain's performances were purely due to dope but it was hardly a level playing field then and probably still isn't.

You didn't actually say anything, you stated an opinion.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #67 on: June 08, 2012, 11:50:11 am »
Tony Martin's role in the HTC lead-out train is of interest. Working for Cavendish did him no harm in 2009.
So do you have figures for his 2009 performance WITHOUT working for Cav?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #68 on: June 08, 2012, 11:53:43 am »
I did not say that Indurain's performances were purely due to dope but it was hardly a level playing field then and probably still isn't.

Of course. But it's all relative. I meant among themselves, the field was relatively level for the medically assisted...

I doubt Wiggins would have been able to keep up with Indurain in the mountains.

d.

GrahamG

  • Babies bugger bicycling
Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #69 on: June 08, 2012, 11:54:24 am »
Just re-gurgitating what Jens Voigt said via twitter and it makes sense - backed up by the views of experienced pros and the historical results of Daupine vs TDF standings.

...and Cath replied to Voigt by saying that he hasn't peaked yet. She may be biased but the evidence of his performances seems to back up the claim - apart from that show of strength yesterday, he's hardly pushed himself in the Dauphiné so far, has he?

As DM says, today's and tomorrow's stages will be the real test of where he is in terms of Tour preparation.

Sky have shown this year that they're treating every race they enter as a proper race, not a warm-up for some other race. It's all part of their training plan, innit. I think they know what they're doing.

d.


That's the kind of dominant awesomeness I'm secretly hoping for - a performance that will even have people doubting that Contador would've made any difference.
Brummie in exile (may it forever be so)

Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #70 on: June 08, 2012, 12:26:31 pm »
Tony Martin's role in the HTC lead-out train is of interest. Working for Cavendish did him no harm in 2009.
So do you have figures for his 2009 performance WITHOUT working for Cav?

I shall be looking to see Wiggins doing some turns in the last 10 km on the flat stages of the Tour. Especially on stages 4 and 5. The proof of the pudding will be in the eating.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #71 on: June 08, 2012, 12:49:59 pm »
I did not say that Indurain's performances were purely due to dope but it was hardly a level playing field then and probably still isn't.

Of course. But it's all relative. I meant among themselves, the field was relatively level for the medically assisted...


No, there are big differences, even amongst those that were (and are) doping. Just for your own amusement, check out how some doctors have moved amongst teams over the years and track the relative performances of the riders.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Steve GT

  • Crediamo in te, bici!
Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #72 on: June 08, 2012, 01:12:08 pm »
Just read that Evans rode the last 48 kilometers without anything to drink as he lost his water bottle just after the 5 Km mark.

I think that happened to Chavanel as well.

But why oh why should that matter in such a short (1 hour) race? Surely sensible pre-hydration is all that is required.

If that was the case why would any of them bother taking a bottle with them?

Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #73 on: June 08, 2012, 01:27:36 pm »
One thing that's passed me by until just now, in all the excitement of Dauphine, Tour, and Olympic road race anticipation, is that Bradley Wiggins stands a strong chance of gold in the Olympic TT.  I'm not a betting man, but you can currenly get 9-2 on BW, as opposed to 5/4 on Tony Martin and 10/11 on Fabian Cancellara.  Given the win yesterday, and the fact that FC is coming back from injury and was generally second to TM last year, those look like good odds.  There's 9 days gap between the final stage and the TT.  Is that enough to recover/keep on form/keep motivated?

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Dauphiné Libéré 2012
« Reply #74 on: June 08, 2012, 01:40:07 pm »
One thing that's passed me by until just now, in all the excitement of Dauphine, Tour, and Olympic road race anticipation, is that Bradley Wiggins stands a strong chance of gold in the Olympic TT.

Funnily enough, I was pondering the same thing earlier. Tony Martin is supposedly focussing on the Olympic TT, so may not be going full-on for the Tour to save himself, but it could well be worth a punt on Wiggo.

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There's 9 days gap between the final stage and the TT.  Is that enough to recover/keep on form/keep motivated?

There's also the question of how much work he has to put in for Cav in the road race...

d.