Author Topic: Cyclist down  (Read 18544 times)

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #150 on: August 03, 2012, 11:59:33 am »
...and the asshole on a bike is the same as the asshole in a car, just substantially less lethal when he leaves his BMW/Audi at home.

I agree (with one minor edit)... ;)
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #151 on: August 03, 2012, 01:31:24 pm »
I accept the edit.
Getting there...

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #152 on: August 03, 2012, 01:42:08 pm »
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #153 on: August 03, 2012, 02:32:38 pm »
I guess there will always be a few idiots who choose to ignore the blindingly obvious dangerous situations, regardless of how well indicated they are.  I suppose the main question is, why do people choose to ignore the warning signs (literally sometimes), and what can be done to limit that.  Do they need less subtle ones?  Do they need to be bigger and more obvious?

I guess there's a requirement for some sort of deeper psychological understanding of why people don't avoid a dangerous situation that's being fairly clearly indicated to them, but I'm damned if I know what can be done.  That particular situation seems to have had pretty much everything except a set of dancing girls chanting "You're going to die if you do that". :-\ ???

It's the Dancing Pigs Problem.  Given the choice between safety that their own experience has so far taught them isn't that big a deal and making progress, lusers will chose to make progress - in exactly the same way they'll happily install malware on their computer because they saw a friend link to it on FriendFace.

Until someone invents a less stupid luser, you can't fix the dancing pigs problem with bigger, clearer warnings.  You have to solve it transparently.

I'm not sure how you do that for this situation.  Well, I can think of a couple of ways: removing the HGVs from the roads, or providing a safe route for cyclists to bypass the queueing traffic.  But nothing that's cheap and easy.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #154 on: August 03, 2012, 02:37:49 pm »
I had a partly sleepless night thinking about this, and got to wondering - with the making of punchy, informative public education films now all but ceased and, on the other hand, the proliferation now of sites like YouTube and Vimeo, maybe it's up to us to put our heads together about the making of a suitable film. ...

Whilst I applaud the enthusiasm, it's not just the making of a film, it's also the broadcasting of it.  In the good old days, I presume the Beeb had some sort of requirement on it to put stuff like this out during the Childrens TV section of broadcasting, hence many of us being familiar with it.  Now, they may be less required to do so, although I know little of this.

You may still get bods like The Cycle Show to broadcast it, but I don't think they're necessarily the target audience.  That does also bring up the question, who is the target audience?  Should you get this message across to the very young, or wait until people are old enough to understand the subtleties more? ("Don't cycle up the inside of a left turning vehicle" is possibly a bit more of an involved message than "Don't cross when there's a car coming").
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #155 on: August 03, 2012, 02:44:23 pm »
'Share the road, not the lane' should be the catchphrase..
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #156 on: August 03, 2012, 02:48:18 pm »
My impression from this, admittedly extremely limited, cross section of the cycling community was that there is cudos in risk-taking and that anyone who cycles with safety in mind is therefore to be scorned. I wonder whether this attitude is fostered by the fact that an awful lot of young cyclists have their first experiences on BMX bikes, where risk-taking and ever more daring manoeuvres seem to be the name of the game.
This isn't a new thing. Kids have always started out riding bikes in a less-than-sensible way. BMX was an 80s thing (possibly earlier?), and kids rode similar bikes (in a similar way) long before the acronym had been invented.

I seem to remember a trekker or tracker style bike that was the norm amongst the youth mid to late 70's. At least that was the nickname given to them, nearly all converted road bikes with motorcycle (scrambler) style handle bars.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #157 on: August 03, 2012, 02:52:52 pm »
You may still get bods like The Cycle Show to broadcast it, but I don't think they're necessarily the target audience.  That does also bring up the question, who is the target audience?  Should you get this message across to the very young, or wait until people are old enough to understand the subtleties more? ("Don't cycle up the inside of a left turning vehicle" is possibly a bit more of an involved message than "Don't cross when there's a car coming").

Adverts on the back of buses would seem like a good way to reach the target audience.

Preferably something better than the recent ambiguous effort by Travel West Midlands.  (Not helped, of course, by getting the URL wrong)


ETA: They've updated their website.  It seems that it was actually intended to warn drivers of the presence of cyclists.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Wascally Weasel

  • Slayer of Dragons and killer of threads.
Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #158 on: August 03, 2012, 03:09:33 pm »
I had a partly sleepless night thinking about this, and got to wondering - with the making of punchy, informative public education films now all but ceased and, on the other hand, the proliferation now of sites like YouTube and Vimeo, maybe it's up to us to put our heads together about the making of a suitable film. ...

Whilst I applaud the enthusiasm, it's not just the making of a film, it's also the broadcasting of it.  In the good old days, I presume the Beeb had some sort of requirement on it to put stuff like this out during the Childrens TV section of broadcasting, hence many of us being familiar with it.  Now, they may be less required to do so, although I know little of this.

You may still get bods like The Cycle Show to broadcast it, but I don't think they're necessarily the target audience.  That does also bring up the question, who is the target audience?  Should you get this message across to the very young, or wait until people are old enough to understand the subtleties more? ("Don't cycle up the inside of a left turning vehicle" is possibly a bit more of an involved message than "Don't cross when there's a car coming").

This is the internet, where we're going we don't need roads broadcasting.  Make it good enough and it goes viral.

Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #159 on: August 03, 2012, 03:14:10 pm »
This is the internet, where we're going we don't need roads broadcasting.  Make it good enough and it goes viral.

True enough, although if you knew exactly what makes something go viral, you could make a fortune!
Actually, it is rocket science.
 

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #160 on: August 03, 2012, 03:18:14 pm »
kittens and nudity*. To you Sir, no charge.

(*ideally not in the same video).
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Wascally Weasel

  • Slayer of Dragons and killer of threads.
Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #161 on: August 03, 2012, 03:27:11 pm »
This is the internet, where we're going we don't need roads broadcasting.  Make it good enough and it goes viral.

True enough, although if you knew exactly what makes something go viral, you could make a fortune!

If you could get Tom Waits to agree to it, I have always thought any road safety ad themed with the song 'On the Nickel' would hit people hard. Powerful lyrics if juxtaposed with tragedy.

Edit: I'm full of ideas but I'm a lazy fucker.

Jaded

  • The Codfather
  • Formerly known as Jaded
Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #162 on: August 03, 2012, 04:00:19 pm »
Educate a proportion of the cycling population and it will become very hard for the minority to carry out the dangerous manoeuvres, as there will be a phalanx of stationary cyclists behind the large vehicles.
If you don't like your democracy, vote against it.

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #163 on: August 03, 2012, 04:16:09 pm »
'Share the road, not the lane' should be the catchphrase..

 :thumbsup:
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #164 on: August 03, 2012, 04:43:49 pm »
kittens and nudity*. To you Sir, no charge.

(*ideally not in the same video).

Are you saying that we either need to train some kittens to wear clothes and ride bicycles, or get some naked people to do it?

Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #165 on: August 03, 2012, 05:47:43 pm »
It is interesting to note that the City Police when they give out a ticket to a cyclist going through red light etc, give the cyclist an option of going on their education course. Which is all about the danger of cycling around HGV etc, no lecturing about going through red lights, gives the opportunity of sitting in a cab whilst a bike moves around it.

Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #166 on: August 03, 2012, 06:14:05 pm »
Not sure how to put this without it being taken the wrong way but
I am uneasy about the we must educate cyclists around hgv etc.
I was watching under tens last month in Holland happily riding out of the school gate and straight onto the road, am I right to assume they have greater street awareness than their British counterparts?
Also there is a notorious stretch of road around here that is narrow and quite frankly scares the shit out of me every time I have to ride along it. The other week I was followed by a German registered HGV for nearly one mile and never once did it attempt to pass me, something that has never happened afaic remember with a british registered truck who normally get three quarters of the way past before squeezing you into the gutter.
Lets be honest the standard of driving in this country by those who can cause the most damage is shocking. Perhaps others see it differently to me.
Going back on topic how can a completely new development like the Olympic Park not have a decent segregated cycle path around it  :-\

AndyK

Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #167 on: August 03, 2012, 06:21:08 pm »


I seem to remember a trekker or tracker style bike that was the norm amongst the youth mid to late 70's. At least that was the nickname given to them, nearly all converted road bikes with motorcycle (scrambler) style handle bars.

Trackies. Any old frame, knobbly tyres, cowhorn bars. Mine was made with an old steel BSA frame, heavy as hell but unbeatable downhill!

Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #168 on: August 03, 2012, 06:22:32 pm »


I seem to remember a trekker or tracker style bike that was the norm amongst the youth mid to late 70's. At least that was the nickname given to them, nearly all converted road bikes with motorcycle (scrambler) style handle bars.

Trackies. Any old frame, knobbly tyres, cowhorn bars. Mine was made with an old steel BSA frame, heavy as hell but unbeatable downhill!

Aye, thats em  :D
Those bikes went through hell, but refused to die  8)

Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #169 on: August 03, 2012, 06:24:34 pm »
Countries that cycle a lot, cycle a lot slower than we do in the UK, ride sensible bikes and don't wear helmets.  There's less of a race element, and they also turn a blind eye to people riding 2 up.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Eating all the pies and drinking all the tea.
Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #170 on: August 03, 2012, 06:52:07 pm »
My impression from this, admittedly extremely limited, cross section of the cycling community was that there is cudos in risk-taking and that anyone who cycles with safety in mind is therefore to be scorned. I wonder whether this attitude is fostered by the fact that an awful lot of young cyclists have their first experiences on BMX bikes, where risk-taking and ever more daring manoeuvres seem to be the name of the game.
I'm rather cautious actually.

That's my coat, the hi-viz one with built in elbow pads and spine protector.

Now that's out of the way; most of the ideas in this thread are good and valid IMO (but BMX is a symptom not a cause). Risk-taking of youth, habitualisation because you get away with it usually, peer pressure, cycle lanes channelling you up the kerbside, etc.

Not sure how to put this without it being taken the wrong way but
I am uneasy about the we must educate cyclists around hgv etc.
I was watching under tens last month in Holland happily riding out of the school gate and straight onto the road, am I right to assume they have greater street awareness than their British counterparts?
Also there is a notorious stretch of road around here that is narrow and quite frankly scares the shit out of me every time I have to ride along it. The other week I was followed by a German registered HGV for nearly one mile and never once did it attempt to pass me, something that has never happened afaic remember with a british registered truck who normally get three quarters of the way past before squeezing you into the gutter.
Lets be honest the standard of driving in this country by those who can cause the most damage is shocking. Perhaps others see it differently to me.
Going back on topic how can a completely new development like the Olympic Park not have a decent segregated cycle path around it  :-\
Similarly in India, where the standard of driving is appalling, buses and trucks will check their mirrors and get their driver's mate (cheap labour helps, obviously) to look out of the window when turning left because they know not only bicycles but motorbikes and even small cars will be shooting through the gap. I don't know how that compares with the Dutch, but perversely, it could be that the more riskily most people behave, the safer the cautious are and vice versa.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

AndyK

Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #171 on: August 07, 2012, 10:01:45 am »

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #172 on: August 07, 2012, 11:30:18 am »
Evening Standard suggests changes to the road layout were partially responsible: http://lydall.standard.co.uk/2012/08/safety-measures-were-removed-from-olympics-junction-10-days-before-cyclist-death.html

The changes to 'safety measures' was the removal of the ASL.  I hardly consider that an ASL is a safety measure in the real world...
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #173 on: August 07, 2012, 11:44:24 am »
Precisely:

Quote
The cyclists’ box was removed by TfL (not the ODA as previously reported) 10 days earlier, meaning riders were not encouraged to position themselves in front of traffic at the lights.

oh, and:

Quote
Mr Harris, who had ridden across South East Asia, was wearing a helmet.

and especially

Quote
his family said they did not want his death to be used for “political point-scoring” after a row was sparked about whether cyclists should wear helmets

Re: Cyclist down
« Reply #174 on: August 07, 2012, 12:54:50 pm »
Not sure how to put this without it being taken the wrong way but
I am uneasy about the we must educate cyclists around hgv etc.
I was watching under tens last month in Holland happily riding out of the school gate and straight onto the road, am I right to assume they have greater street awareness than their British counterparts?

No, but their culture is very much the cycle has right of way, there are (probably) thousands of kilometres of segregated cycle paths - with their own traffic lights. And most cycling is of the utility variety, generally slower, and nothing at all to do with racing/audax etc. etc. just a way to get from a to b in a very flat country.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)