Author Topic: I now know what the creaking noise was.... (Read 18966 times)

Adam · « **Reply #50 on:** 14 August, 2012, 08:32:36 pm »

Eek, and other sounds of shock and horror.

I know how much you loved that bike. My envy of how it looked and rode was only tempered by the fact it was too small for me! Hopefully its replacement will provide you with just as much enjoyment in the future.

RIP Aeolus.

zigzag · « **Reply #51 on:** 17 August, 2012, 02:37:20 pm »

any response from vn?

Andrij · « **Reply #52 on:** 17 August, 2012, 03:31:50 pm »

Ouch, ouch, ouch!

Hope VN can sort this out for you ASAP.

alexb · « **Reply #53 on:** 02 October, 2012, 11:50:27 am »

Quote from: bikenrrd on 10 August, 2012, 03:22:52 pm

Quote from: dasmoth on 10 August, 2012, 03:14:13 pm
This question has been bugging me lately, too. I understand that aerospace contractors generally do Ti welds under pure Argon (in a glove-box or whatever). I don't think this is common practice in the bicycle industry -- maybe too much contamination at the weld sites?

I've spoken to my dad about this. He used to work at Rolls-Royce as a design engineer so knows a thing or two about working with Ti. Aerospace components made from Ti are welded in a box that is completely vented of oxygen and replaced with a mostly Argon mix. The welding is done by a robot under computer control!

Ti welding for bike frames is usually done by blowing argon across the weld. Some might do it in a glove box, but the chances of completely venting the oxygen are slim and lead to weld failures. Everyone I know personally who has a Ti bike has cracked it, and I'd never buy a Ti bike personally.

Ti frames are welded by sealing the tubes and purging them under positive pressure with argon. The welding tip also has a shield that is gas purged, the end result is that the weld area is under positive pressure from two directions. Watch some videos of how it's done. It's a lot more controlled than just "blowing gas across the weld".

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #54 on:** 02 October, 2012, 12:47:25 pm »

I've just seen this thread - ouch, painful and sorrowful!

Any news (good, hopefully) on the warranty front?

Jurek · « **Reply #55 on:** 02 November, 2012, 06:42:49 pm »

Update.

Andrij · « **Reply #56 on:** 03 November, 2012, 09:59:49 am »

Hurrah!

Trull · « **Reply #57 on:** 18 November, 2012, 08:40:46 am »

If anyone has an odd creaking sound - please get it checked out by asking your local friendly metal workshop to carry out a DPI (Dye Penetrant Inspection) of the likely area. This will work on Ti, Ali, and Steel frames, but needs to be on the bare metal.

uphillbothways · « **Reply #58 on:** 18 November, 2012, 02:05:28 pm »

Quote from: alexb on 02 October, 2012, 11:50:27 am

Quote from: bikenrrd on 10 August, 2012, 03:22:52 pm
Quote from: dasmoth on 10 August, 2012, 03:14:13 pm
This question has been bugging me lately, too. I understand that aerospace contractors generally do Ti welds under pure Argon (in a glove-box or whatever). I don't think this is common practice in the bicycle industry -- maybe too much contamination at the weld sites?

I've spoken to my dad about this. He used to work at Rolls-Royce as a design engineer so knows a thing or two about working with Ti. Aerospace components made from Ti are welded in a box that is completely vented of oxygen and replaced with a mostly Argon mix. The welding is done by a robot under computer control!

Ti welding for bike frames is usually done by blowing argon across the weld. Some might do it in a glove box, but the chances of completely venting the oxygen are slim and lead to weld failures. Everyone I know personally who has a Ti bike has cracked it, and I'd never buy a Ti bike personally.

Ti frames are welded by sealing the tubes and purging them under positive pressure with argon. The welding tip also has a shield that is gas purged, the end result is that the weld area is under positive pressure from two directions. Watch some videos of how it's done. It's a lot more controlled than just "blowing gas across the weld".

It's not controlled at all. There's no repeatability in the process - they're not purging with vacuum, they don't have precise control over the positioning of the shield or the duration of post-shielding, they're not measuring weld temperatures, they're not measuring the O2 and N2 levels in the purged area. A typical manufacturer of titanium frames has absolutely no idea as to the quality and consistency of their welds and is just making a best effort at shielding and hoping for the best.

I really like titanium as a material and I really like TIG as a process, but I'm angry at the slapdash methods being used by many manufacturers. Someone earlier in this thread commented that titanium frames are looking less and less like a "frame for life". This perception is entirely the fault of shoddy welding practices and there is absolutely no reason why a properly made titanium frame should not have an indefinite working life, crashes permitting. Obviously I can't comment on individual manufacturers and I'd like to make it very clear that I am not implying that any particular company is making bad welds; That said, I am seeing an alarming number of failed welds that simply shouldn't be happening, on bikes from many manufacturers. People are seeing cracked frames and getting the impression that titanium is inherently brittle, when all of these cracks are propagating from welds.

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #59 on:** 18 November, 2012, 02:42:04 pm »

Quote from: uphillgardener on 18 November, 2012, 02:05:28 pm

It's not controlled at all. There's no repeatability in the process - they're not purging with vacuum, they don't have precise control over the positioning of the shield or the duration of post-shielding, they're not measuring weld temperatures, they're not measuring the O2 and N2 levels in the purged area. A typical manufacturer of titanium frames has absolutely no idea as to the quality and consistency of their welds and is just making a best effort at shielding and hoping for the best.

I think you are quite correct, and I suspect the reason for this rash of cracked frames lies in the increased popularity of ti frames engendered by their decreasing retail price, in turn made possible by outsourcing production to Chinese people who don't give a shit.

I own/have owned 3 Ti frames, one made by Opera (Pinarello), and two from XACD. The difference in quality is startling. The road XACD frame was infinitely better than the track frame (although I sold the road frame on). I love the track frame, partly because I got the geometry spot on, but it isn't a tidy looking job. The fact that the BB threads were mashed, presumesbly from clamping whilst welding, does not lead me to suspect that much care would have been taken with the actual welding process. I don't expect this frame to outlive me, but then I only paid £250 for it.

The Opera is in a different league entirely and oozes quality. I would be surprised it it was built in the Pinarello factory rather than outsourced to somebody like Billato with the expertise.

I believe that the brand 'Setavento' went bust because they couldn't afford to honour the warranty they offered with their Chinese made (XACD, apparently) frames. I would hazard a guess that companies like Sabbath, maybe VN and Burls use similar sourcing.

Andrew Br · « **Reply #60 on:** 18 November, 2012, 09:57:59 pm »

Quote from: Spirit of Flatus on 18 November, 2012, 02:42:04 pm

I would hazard a guess that companies like Sabbath, maybe VN and Burls use similar sourcing.

Burls use a Russian supplier or so he told us.
Justin's wife is Russian so it would make sense.

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #61 on:** 18 November, 2012, 10:00:35 pm »

The owner of a Ti frame told me last weekend that it was made in Kent - unfortunately I can't now remember if it was Sabbath or Enigma,

but it was definitely one of the two. He also has a VN, which he seems to regard as an even better bike.

Jurek · « **Reply #62 on:** 18 November, 2012, 10:09:19 pm »

Probably Enigma.

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #63 on:** 18 November, 2012, 10:18:06 pm »

Which, I seem to recall, were also outsourced abroad, despite the obfuscation from Enigma (as was).

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #64 on:** 18 November, 2012, 10:19:06 pm »

Quote from: Chocolatebike on 18 November, 2012, 09:57:59 pm

Quote from: Spirit of Flatus on 18 November, 2012, 02:42:04 pm
I would hazard a guess that companies like Sabbath, maybe VN and Burls use similar sourcing.

Burls use a Russian supplier or so he told us.
Justin's wife is Russian so it would make sense.

Yep, I'd heard that too. The Burls look a bit better than most.

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #65 on:** 18 November, 2012, 10:24:08 pm »

He was definite the frame was welded up in Kent. I was surprised but he insisted this. Maybe they started off making them there then outsourced when they became more popular?

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #66 on:** 18 November, 2012, 10:38:34 pm »

Enigma started off as Omega, IIRC, headed by a frame builder called Mark Reilly. He ran into all sorts of business problems, with it all getting very sketchy until the former owner of a cycle parts distribution company took it over.

But I'm almost certain that the Ti frames were either Russian or far eastern.

DrMekon · « **Reply #67 on:** 18 November, 2012, 11:01:43 pm »

The website says they are all built in the UK, but I'm sure I heard that the custom Enigmas are done in the UK, the OTP ones are outsourced. As such, the little extra for custom is supposed to be a good deal. Bendy Bianchi has one, perhaps he could confirm.

http://www.enigmabikes.com/about-us.html

uphillbothways · « **Reply #68 on:** 18 November, 2012, 11:12:47 pm »

If a frame doesn't say "MADE IN ENGLAND" in big letters, you can bet your arse it isn't. A lot of firms use words like "heritage" and "handcrafted" and litter their website with black-and-white photos of bearded men hunched over a hot braze, but it's the decals that tell the real story. The oft-used phrase "Designed in the United Kingdom" means "made in the People's Republic of Somewhere Else". One particularly creative copywriter coined the amusingly evasive "Designed in the UK and handcrafted in Titanium".

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #69 on:** 19 November, 2012, 06:05:29 am »

Bianchi frames say 'Made in Italy', but they aren't.

Dunno about Enigma now, but certainly when they were taken over it was outsourced.

bikenrrd · « **Reply #70 on:** 19 November, 2012, 08:49:32 am »

The Enigma steel frames are definitely made in England, but I don't know about the titanium ones.

bobb · « **Reply #71 on:** 19 November, 2012, 09:12:24 am »

I used to have a BSO that said "HAND BUILT IN BRITAIN" on it. In other words, the frame and component parts were made in China and they were put together by a teenager on minimum wage somewhere in Britain.

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #72 on:** 19 November, 2012, 10:34:30 am »

Any frame of any material is "made" in lots of places. The titanium ore might be mined in Russia, refined in Germany, extruded into tubes in Japan, welded in China, sprayed in Korea and have stickers put on in Britain. I'm sure I remember reading somewhere that legally "Made in ..." refers to the country of the last manufacturing process, so the frame in my made up example would be legally "Made in Britain" whereas what is of real interest is the welding.

Hot Flatus · « **Reply #73 on:** 19 November, 2012, 10:38:56 am »

Yep, which is why some far eastern frames say 'Made in Italy' or Belgium or wherever, because that is where they are painted.

Cudzoziemiec · « **Reply #74 on:** 19 November, 2012, 10:43:04 am »

Though if you think about the reputation Italian cars and motorbikes have for corrosion and dodgy paint, "Made in Kyrgyzstan" might be more confidence inspiring.