Poll

Apparently there'a vacancy, I'd vote for Andy Wilkinson, but my opinion is not to be trusted.

Lance Armstrong
28 (40.6%)
US Postal/ Discovery
2 (2.9%)
Someone else on drugs.
13 (18.8%)
Anyone you felt never got a fair crack of the whip
10 (14.5%)
Jens Voigt
16 (23.2%)

Total Members Voted: 57

Author Topic: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005  (Read 7558 times)

Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« on: August 31, 2012, 08:00:43 pm »
Obviously someone who actually completed the Tour is the best candidate, but we have to allow ourselves some creative space.

Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #1 on: August 31, 2012, 08:04:46 pm »
nobody

LEE

Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #2 on: August 31, 2012, 08:10:04 pm »
I have 100%, totally and utterly lost all interest in who won.


Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #3 on: August 31, 2012, 08:15:03 pm »
Rod Stewart

Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2012, 08:21:44 pm »
My favourite Lance moment is this, and I'm not a Lance fan.
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/oiCIJ2JewPE&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/oiCIJ2JewPE&rel=1</a>
I think there's a tendency to forget the thrill of the moment. and I was entertained.
He also seems to have been the last to stick to a quill stem.

Basil

  • Um....err......oh bugger!
  • Help me!
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2012, 08:24:28 pm »
Was it me?
I do get confused these days. ???
Quote from: Kim
And remember that friends who organise things on Facebook aren't proper friends anyway.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2012, 08:39:01 pm »
Bayer Faber AB
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

fungus

  • SO @ T
    • Tamworth cycling club
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2012, 09:17:23 pm »
Was it me?
I do get confused these days. ???

Yes it was mate & may I be the 1st to congratulate you  :thumbsup:
SR 2010/11/12/13/14/15
RRTY. PBP. LeJoG 1400. LEL.




Rig of Jarkness

  • An Englishman abroad
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2012, 07:15:15 am »
You might as well ask who won the Tour de France from 1903 to 1999. 
Aero but not dynamic

clarion

  • Tyke
Getting there...

StuAff

  • Folding not boring
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2012, 09:56:34 pm »
You might as well ask who won the Tour de France from 1903 to 1999.

+1. Drug use in one form or another has been going on for far too long to start mucking about with historical records now. Taking the wins away from Armstrong does nothing to benefit anyone else. Andy Schleck doesn't count himself as a Tour winner (OK, no-one else does either)...
Apart from Lance, we have in recent times:
Ullrich. Doper, and who says he wasn't on something in '97..?
Zabel. Admitted doping during the '96 Tour.  But those were only green jerseys, so is that OK?
Riis (admitted doping during '96).
Pantani. I assume no-one's going to bother taking the '98 title from a dead man.
Indurain- well, there were rumours....
Fignon- admitted doping in his memoirs. And again, why take the title from a dead man?
Virenque....


Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2012, 11:06:35 pm »
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #12 on: September 02, 2012, 11:10:47 pm »
OK, you got me on that one. They have a very good line in recombinant products.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2012, 12:49:55 am »
I thought it was Bristol Myers Squibb,
<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/Iji8xKgDzaQ&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/Iji8xKgDzaQ&rel=1</a>

Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #14 on: September 03, 2012, 01:13:35 am »
OK, you got me on that one. They have a very good line in recombinant products.

And a couple of anaemia treatments, Aranesp in particular.

There was a certain amount of amused talk when Amgen started sponsoring the Tour of California.

Roche Pharmaceuticals is a name I've seen bandied about in connection with Armstrong, referring to possible usage of CERA, but unless he was getting hold of it 2-3 years ahead of those who were busted for it in 2008 and onwards, I'm minded to rule them out as a TdF winner in the Armstrong era.
"Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And when you look long into an abyss, the abyss also looks into you." ~ Friedrich Nietzsche

Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #15 on: September 03, 2012, 06:33:30 am »
Was it Teethgrinder?
Never tell me the odds.

Rig of Jarkness

  • An Englishman abroad
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #16 on: September 03, 2012, 07:13:51 am »
You might as well ask who won the Tour de France from 1903 to 1999.

+1. Drug use in one form or another has been going on for far too long to start mucking about with historical records now. Taking the wins away from Armstrong does nothing to benefit anyone else. Andy Schleck doesn't count himself as a Tour winner (OK, no-one else does either)...
Apart from Lance, we have in recent times:
Ullrich. Doper, and who says he wasn't on something in '97..?
Zabel. Admitted doping during the '96 Tour.  But those were only green jerseys, so is that OK?
Riis (admitted doping during '96).
Pantani. I assume no-one's going to bother taking the '98 title from a dead man.
Indurain- well, there were rumours....
Fignon- admitted doping in his memoirs. And again, why take the title from a dead man?
Virenque....

And much much further back than that.

Basically the most pragmatic solution at this point is to let Armstrong's results stand and to draw a line under it. 
Aero but not dynamic

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2012, 08:26:37 am »
So the appropriate penalty for extensive, team-managed doping associated with UCI corruption doesn't even include taking away the wins? This is drawing a line?

There are implications to retaining doped TdF wins, including win bonuses and libel payments.

The only correct answer is that nobody wins those TdFs. 'When everybody cheats, nobody wins' is a good philosophy!

There has recently been retrospective testing of more Armstrong samples - positive, of course.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2012, 08:49:37 am »
The question rises as to where to stop. Just burn down the whole UCI having salvaged the three people over 40 who are non-doping tainted? A potentially attractive proposition but with incredible fallout potential.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2012, 09:32:25 am »
So the appropriate penalty for extensive, team-managed doping associated with UCI corruption doesn't even include taking away the wins? This is drawing a line?

There are implications to retaining doped TdF wins, including win bonuses and libel payments.

The only correct answer is that nobody wins those TdFs. 'When everybody cheats, nobody wins' is a good philosophy!

There has recently been retrospective testing of more Armstrong samples - positive, of course.

Clearly the wins can be taken away, but will that make much difference to public perceptions? I've had people say they can't believe I can do a 200k Audax without some sort of drugs, and people do take Ibuprofen, and puff on athsma inhalers, even at that level of the sport.
There's a 'chemical generation' who lean on stuff such as energy drinks as part of their routine, and have an attitude that anything goes as long as you're not caught.
Improved testing, larger squad size, biological passports and tougher sanctions are having an affect. Delving into the past has a publicity benefit, and might discourage a few people from wearing their Discovery kit, but they can go out and buy some Sky kit.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2012, 09:39:22 am »
You are right. Much better to not penalise racers for doping and to maintain the current UCI arrangement of favouring specific racers. Not penalising those that pushed the system to where it is now. Requiring riders to take performance-enhancing drugs with unknown health implications to be competitive is a better option. Dealing with the implications would just be too difficult.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2012, 01:13:10 pm »
If youtake away the wins then you take away every award won by anyone who has been sanctioned. If you just take LA then he could well accuse the authorities of vindictive behaviour if they don't chase down his compatriots in crime. Ideally we could wipe the slate clean, expunge the record and memory of anyone who was doping. Should we stop at LA though? Anquetil? Coppi? Hinault? What is the practical and pragmatic approach? Shooting one pour encourager les autre is not generally regarded as a fair and even handed approach.

A line has to be drawn at some point. Ideally it should be a clear and unambiguous line. Practically, what can be done?
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2012, 01:22:12 pm »
Take out the ones that you can prove did it. Armstrong and Bruyneel fits that requirement, in spades.

Take out the ones that encouraged/ required doping by their teammates and suppressed adverse comment by others in the peloton and media. Guess who.

Take out the ones that have been protected by the UCI. That would be LA and Bruyneel again.

This isn't just somebody gaining an unfair win. This is much bigger than that. Wiping your hands and saying 'All too difficult, continue on.' is just encouraging the practice. You are saying "Winning, by any means, is all that counts. It doesn't even matter if you get caught, you'll not lose anything."
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2012, 01:25:27 pm »
ESL, a growing section of the general public are understanding that fairy tales are just that and that LA doped to win every TdF. Reality bites, but there you go.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Who won the Tour de France from 1999 to 2005
« Reply #24 on: September 03, 2012, 02:13:46 pm »
LWaB, that's the only reasonable line which can be drawn.
Getting there...