Author Topic: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?  (Read 96323 times)

Auntie Helen

  • 6 Wheels in Germany
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1025 on: January 08, 2019, 03:07:26 pm »
Nope, it was a bit perturbing at first.

After 7 days on Keto I’m back to regular once per day, after breakfast, nothing too dramatic.
My blog on cycling in Germany and eating German cake – http://www.auntiehelen.co.uk


whosatthewheel

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1026 on: January 08, 2019, 04:14:37 pm »
Nope, it was a bit perturbing at first.

After 7 days on Keto I’m back to regular once per day, after breakfast, nothing too dramatic.

The latest seem to be the more the merrier, when it comes to poop. Some African diets high in fibre are highly praised for that. Apparently all good for gut bacteria, fast transit minimises the chances of bowel cancer and all of that

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1027 on: January 08, 2019, 04:54:47 pm »
Nope, it was a bit perturbing at first.

After 7 days on Keto I’m back to regular once per day, after breakfast, nothing too dramatic.

One of the main reasons I went Keto was at long tides on usual gels etc used to get awful gut ache. On top for a number of years I was diagnosed with IBS.

So did my own research and spoke to s guy on Keto and within weeks after adaption I was great and yes volume is less.

Why ??

Simply on a real food high fat diet your body uses most of what there is to use, hence less waste ...

Going mad at Xmas with all the crap brought all those bad feelings back

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1028 on: January 08, 2019, 05:05:23 pm »
We both discovered we have about double the poop volume when on carbs,

I was always led to believe it is a good thing.

Not really. It's poor transit that's bad. Better the bowel is empty than jammed full of hard to shift crap. There's plenty of ways to achieve this; be active, drink plenty of water, eat loads of fibre if you feel the need, or don't eat much at all. One thing keto diets do well is make it easy to reduce down to one/two meals a day. Less input == Less output.

whosatthewheel

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1029 on: January 08, 2019, 05:28:14 pm »
We both discovered we have about double the poop volume when on carbs,

I was always led to believe it is a good thing.

Not really. It's poor transit that's bad. Better the bowel is empty than jammed full of hard to shift crap. There's plenty of ways to achieve this; be active, drink plenty of water, eat loads of fibre if you feel the need, or don't eat much at all. One thing keto diets do well is make it easy to reduce down to one/two meals a day. Less input == Less output.

I had Netflix over the Christmas period and watched a few films about Paleo, which basically is Keto... the principles make sense, but I am still unconvinced that a diet packed with animal saturated fat doesn't lead to high cholesterol...
It certainly didn't work for us. We went black pudding crazy for a while, we were having a slice every morning of the organic/nitrite free/real blood you name it, but with a lot of pig fat. Two months later our cholesterol (both my wife and mine) went through the roof... my wife got up to 6.2, which is way higher that her normal.
We then stopped and cut meat altogether and things went back to normal.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1030 on: January 08, 2019, 05:46:03 pm »
Well, it's a concern. My cholesterol is high too; 6.4 when last tested. A lot of it is HDL because I'm active, so that's a good thing. My serum triglycerides are very low, which is also a good thing. I've never had my LDL tested - they rarely do, the quoted LDL figure is a simple subtraction of Total - HDL. If analysed, the LDL would split into fractions according to particle size - big fluffy particles being benign, small dense particles being the bad guys. Guess what makes the small/dense concentration go up? Yes that's right, insulin-spiking carbs (and presumably, excessive protein).

Half of all cardiac-event sufferers though A&E have normal cholesterol. Surely that wouldn't be the case if total cholesterol were the whole story, as in "Low is Good, High is Bad"?

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1031 on: January 08, 2019, 07:09:23 pm »
We both discovered we have about double the poop volume when on carbs,

I was always led to believe it is a good thing.

Not really. It's poor transit that's bad. Better the bowel is empty than jammed full of hard to shift crap. There's plenty of ways to achieve this; be active, drink plenty of water, eat loads of fibre if you feel the need, or don't eat much at all. One thing keto diets do well is make it easy to reduce down to one/two meals a day. Less input == Less output.

I had Netflix over the Christmas period and watched a few films about Paleo, which basically is Keto... the principles make sense, but I am still unconvinced that a diet packed with animal saturated fat doesn't lead to high cholesterol...
It certainly didn't work for us. We went black pudding crazy for a while, we were having a slice every morning of the organic/nitrite free/real blood you name it, but with a lot of pig fat. Two months later our cholesterol (both my wife and mine) went through the roof... my wife got up to 6.2, which is way higher that her normal.
We then stopped and cut meat altogether and things went back to normal.

One of the quotes many say is that cholesterol is like firefighters on the scene of a fire, in our bodies the fire is inflammation.

Cholesterol is the biggest myth ever given to the public ... firstly to sell crap like statins and secondary to present  wheat is ‘heart healthy’.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1032 on: January 08, 2019, 08:28:25 pm »
Sounds like one of those conspiracies.  There are a lot about.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1033 on: January 08, 2019, 08:59:35 pm »
Sounds like one of those conspiracies.  There are a lot about.

No conspiracy, plenty of proper science out there to show what cholesterol actually is. The studies on what the whole thing was built on showed only some correlation but not causation if you do not fractional analysis

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1034 on: January 08, 2019, 10:20:06 pm »
Sounds like one of those conspiracies.  There are a lot about.

No conspiracy, plenty of proper science out there to show what cholesterol actually is. The studies on what the whole thing was built on showed only some correlation but not causation if you do not fractional analysis

That old chestnut, hours upon hours of research done by some of the best medical minds however...'correlation is not causation.'

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1035 on: January 08, 2019, 10:21:38 pm »
Well, it's a concern. My cholesterol is high too; 6.4 when last tested. A lot of it is HDL because I'm active, so that's a good thing. My serum triglycerides are very low, which is also a good thing. I've never had my LDL tested - they rarely do, the quoted LDL figure is a simple subtraction of Total - HDL. If analysed, the LDL would split into fractions according to particle size - big fluffy particles being benign, small dense particles being the bad guys. Guess what makes the small/dense concentration go up? Yes that's right, insulin-spiking carbs (and presumably, excessive protein).

Half of all cardiac-event sufferers though A&E have normal cholesterol. Surely that wouldn't be the case if total cholesterol were the whole story, as in "Low is Good, High is Bad"?

You'd be right, in particular animal protein, in particular beef has been shown to spike insulin as much as white bread.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1036 on: January 08, 2019, 10:23:15 pm »
Well, it's a concern. My cholesterol is high too; 6.4 when last tested. A lot of it is HDL because I'm active, so that's a good thing. My serum triglycerides are very low, which is also a good thing. I've never had my LDL tested - they rarely do, the quoted LDL figure is a simple subtraction of Total - HDL. If analysed, the LDL would split into fractions according to particle size - big fluffy particles being benign, small dense particles being the bad guys. Guess what makes the small/dense concentration go up? Yes that's right, insulin-spiking carbs (and presumably, excessive protein).

Half of all cardiac-event sufferers though A&E have normal cholesterol. Surely that wouldn't be the case if total cholesterol were the whole story, as in "Low is Good, High is Bad"?

You'd be right, in particular animal protein, in particular beef has been shown to spike insulin as much as white bread.

Any facts to back it up ? And excess would because as you know excess protein converts to carbs and causes blood sugar spike this insulin spike 

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1037 on: January 08, 2019, 10:30:54 pm »
[
Quote

That old chestnut, hours upon hours of research done by some of the best medical minds however...'correlation is not causation.'

It is not .. like saying people eat more ice cream and more drownings in the summer ... correlation but causation is a third party ... the sun

In all those studies and seen plenty there is one measure never mentioned ...  CRP the measurement for inflammation .

Inflammation which is made worse by higher carb diets 

Remeber once science told us eating eggs was a major cause of high cholesterol ??  Now that has been totally debunked by newer science and the advice is eggs - fill your boots ... btw I eat up to 28 a week

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1038 on: January 08, 2019, 11:01:29 pm »
[
Quote

That old chestnut, hours upon hours of research done by some of the best medical minds however...'correlation is not causation.'

It is not .. like saying people eat more ice cream and more drownings in the summer ... correlation but causation is a third party ... the sun

In all those studies and seen plenty there is one measure never mentioned ...  CRP the measurement for inflammation .

Inflammation which is made worse by higher carb diets 

Remeber once science told us eating eggs was a major cause of high cholesterol ??  Now that has been totally debunked by newer science and the advice is eggs - fill your boots ... btw I eat up to 28 a week


Ice creams and the sun.... :-\


If you are talking carbs, you need to make the distinction between refined carbs and plant based carbs, a can of coke will spike my insulin levels - a couple of bananas won't.


IIRC the FDA handed the egg industry in America it's own arse when they tried to promote eggs as a health food. The studies I have read about egg consumption, to show that eggs were healthy were biased. In that the subjects already had high cholesterol, so upping their egg intake would not have a material impact.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1039 on: January 08, 2019, 11:04:52 pm »
[
Quote

That old chestnut, hours upon hours of research done by some of the best medical minds however...'correlation is not causation.'

It is not .. like saying people eat more ice cream and more drownings in the summer ... correlation but causation is a third party ... the sun

In all those studies and seen plenty there is one measure never mentioned ...  CRP the measurement for inflammation .

Inflammation which is made worse by higher carb diets 

Remeber once science told us eating eggs was a major cause of high cholesterol ??  Now that has been totally debunked by newer science and the advice is eggs - fill your boots ... btw I eat up to 28 a week


Ice creams and the sun.... :-\


If you are talking carbs, you need to make the distinction between refined carbs and plant based carbs, a can of coke will spike my insulin levels - a couple of bananas won't.


IIRC the FDA handed the egg industry in America it's own arse when they tried to promote eggs as a health food. The studies I have read about egg consumption, to show that eggs were healthy were biased. In that the subjects already had high cholesterol, so upping their egg intake would not have a material impact.

Seriously quoting the FDA one of the most corrupt US govt bodies ??

As for carbs they are all processed through the same metabolic pathway the only difference is real carbs in say fruit and veg have fibre with them to slow down this.

On eggs there is NO metabolic pathway that turns their cholesterol into ours .. if there is please share it.

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1040 on: January 08, 2019, 11:06:04 pm »
Well, it's a concern. My cholesterol is high too; 6.4 when last tested. A lot of it is HDL because I'm active, so that's a good thing. My serum triglycerides are very low, which is also a good thing. I've never had my LDL tested - they rarely do, the quoted LDL figure is a simple subtraction of Total - HDL. If analysed, the LDL would split into fractions according to particle size - big fluffy particles being benign, small dense particles being the bad guys. Guess what makes the small/dense concentration go up? Yes that's right, insulin-spiking carbs (and presumably, excessive protein).

Half of all cardiac-event sufferers though A&E have normal cholesterol. Surely that wouldn't be the case if total cholesterol were the whole story, as in "Low is Good, High is Bad"?

You'd be right, in particular animal protein, in particular beef has been shown to spike insulin as much as white bread.

Any facts to back it up ? And excess would because as you know excess protein converts to carbs and causes blood sugar spike this insulin spike

Correct, plenty of studies out there regarding the increase in insulin from meat. As mentioned in my previous post, there is refined carbs and non-refined carbs, the pertinent thing here is FIBRE.

LMT

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1041 on: January 08, 2019, 11:13:47 pm »
[
Quote

That old chestnut, hours upon hours of research done by some of the best medical minds however...'correlation is not causation.'

It is not .. like saying people eat more ice cream and more drownings in the summer ... correlation but causation is a third party ... the sun

In all those studies and seen plenty there is one measure never mentioned ...  CRP the measurement for inflammation .

Inflammation which is made worse by higher carb diets 

Remeber once science told us eating eggs was a major cause of high cholesterol ??  Now that has been totally debunked by newer science and the advice is eggs - fill your boots ... btw I eat up to 28 a week


Ice creams and the sun.... :-\


If you are talking carbs, you need to make the distinction between refined carbs and plant based carbs, a can of coke will spike my insulin levels - a couple of bananas won't.


IIRC the FDA handed the egg industry in America it's own arse when they tried to promote eggs as a health food. The studies I have read about egg consumption, to show that eggs were healthy were biased. In that the subjects already had high cholesterol, so upping their egg intake would not have a material impact.

Seriously quoting the FDA one of the most corrupt US govt bodies ??

As for carbs they are all processed through the same metabolic pathway the only difference is real carbs in say fruit and veg have fibre with them to slow down this.

On eggs there is NO metabolic pathway that turns their cholesterol into ours .. if there is please share it.

You need to cite regarding the eggs and the FDA.

And if you know this about carbs and fibre then why not make this distintion before hand or have you got an agenda?

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1042 on: January 08, 2019, 11:21:58 pm »
[OT but...]

Use them for microwaving vegetables. Very good for keto-friendly brassicas...

No microwave:) love brassicas though, and non-Keto bubble and squeak

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1043 on: January 08, 2019, 11:32:45 pm »
[
Quote

That old chestnut, hours upon hours of research done by some of the best medical minds however...'correlation is not causation.'

It is not .. like saying people eat more ice cream and more drownings in the summer ... correlation but causation is a third party ... the sun

In all those studies and seen plenty there is one measure never mentioned ...  CRP the measurement for inflammation .

Inflammation which is made worse by higher carb diets 

Remeber once science told us eating eggs was a major cause of high cholesterol ??  Now that has been totally debunked by newer science and the advice is eggs - fill your boots ... btw I eat up to 28 a week


Ice creams and the sun.... :-\


If you are talking carbs, you need to make the distinction between refined carbs and plant based carbs, a can of coke will spike my insulin levels - a couple of bananas won't.


IIRC the FDA handed the egg industry in America it's own arse when they tried to promote eggs as a health food. The studies I have read about egg consumption, to show that eggs were healthy were biased. In that the subjects already had high cholesterol, so upping their egg intake would not have a material impact.

Seriously quoting the FDA one of the most corrupt US govt bodies ??

As for carbs they are all processed through the same metabolic pathway the only difference is real carbs in say fruit and veg have fibre with them to slow down this.

On eggs there is NO metabolic pathway that turns their cholesterol into ours .. if there is please share it.

You need to cite regarding the eggs and the FDA.

And if you know this about carbs and fibre then why not make this distintion before hand or have you got an agenda?


There is nuance here in that loading rate may matter more than amount - likely if the insulin spike and inflammatory responses is the key issue - and slowing the loading rate by eating less carb, eating slower to convert to glucose carb or adding fibrous carb (or fat) might all have significant impacts on health outcomes. It’s probably not as simple as one metabolic pathway;)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1044 on: January 09, 2019, 09:22:21 am »
Sounds like one of those conspiracies.  There are a lot about.
Got any evidence of that?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1045 on: January 09, 2019, 10:43:56 am »
Sounds like one of those conspiracies.  There are a lot about.
Got any evidence of that?
The lizard people told me.

whosatthewheel

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1046 on: January 10, 2019, 11:32:11 am »
a quick search suggests the name "Look mum, no carbs!" for a paleo cafe is still up for grabs...  8)

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1047 on: March 27, 2019, 02:53:23 pm »
This might be slightly old news but has just recurred on my Twitter feed.

I find it rather distasteful to blame your mother for her demise...

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/comment/my-mothers-vegetarian-diet-contributed-to-her-early-death-we-should-all-learn-from-it/

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1048 on: March 27, 2019, 03:20:44 pm »
Why? There's plenty of folks who contribute to their own demise - my GP once said to me "Two thirds of the people in that waiting room out there are here because of their lifestyle".

Smokers, drinkers, addicts, and folks with disastrous diets; these are all at high risk of preventable illness, extended morbidity and early death.

It's rather sensational to blame it on the fact that his mother was a vegetarian though; it sounds rather like she was a "Chips & Chocolate" vegetarian, and suffered ill health because of that.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #1049 on: March 27, 2019, 07:18:20 pm »
Just to say I did the Rough Diamond audax as started fasted and just some scotch eggs and the odd coke for 300 in those conditions, fat adaption is great