Author Topic: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?  (Read 203880 times)

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #900 on: 28 November, 2018, 11:17:47 am »
Just remind me of the three macro nutrients we do not need to eat as we produce it ourselves to live ?

If your diet was the one and only answer to human dietary needs, do you not think that more people would have found out about it, that it would have had massive news coverage, that doctors would start recommending it to their patients, that everyone would start learning that it was actually a much better way to eat?

Why do you think that hasn't happened?

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #901 on: 28 November, 2018, 11:32:29 am »
Because since the 70’s all we heard was fat is bad, it causes heart attacks etc so there was a massive shift from fat to carb based meals. At exactly the same time been a massive rise in obesity so there is a correlation and I believe a causation ...

And why ?

Because science shows carbs do fill an hunger gap in the short term but quickly afterwards you become hungry again, whereas fat has a much greater satiety levels and now I never snack between meals as never hungry !

Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could 

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #902 on: 28 November, 2018, 11:39:16 am »
Because since the 70’s all we heard was fat is bad, it causes heart attacks etc so there was a massive shift from fat to carb based meals. At exactly the same time been a massive rise in obesity so there is a correlation and I believe a causation ...

And why ?

Because science shows carbs do fill an hunger gap in the short term but quickly afterwards you become hungry again, whereas fat has a much greater satiety levels and now I never snack between meals as never hungry !

Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could

You've not answered my question.

And the rise in obesity you blame entirely on carbs? Nothing to do with income, will power, social acceptance?

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #903 on: 28 November, 2018, 11:50:47 am »
Because since the 70’s all we heard was fat is bad, it causes heart attacks etc so there was a massive shift from fat to carb based meals. At exactly the same time been a massive rise in obesity so there is a correlation and I believe a causation ...

And why ?

Because science shows carbs do fill an hunger gap in the short term but quickly afterwards you become hungry again, whereas fat has a much greater satiety levels and now I never snack between meals as never hungry !

Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could

You've not answered my question.

And the rise in obesity you blame entirely on carbs? Nothing to do with income, will power, social acceptance?


Indeed, we have created something of a social problem as a consequence of the wide availability of energy dense 'snacks' (Starbucks is a cake and dairy business, not a coffee shop), the expectation of a coffee and cake at every opportunity and the consequent normalisation of bmi's at much higher than historic levels. The sizing of clothes has of course responded, but I was shocked to find that I am now a medium in most running kit, despite being 1.5 stone heavier than my 'large' self some 25 years ago.

Whilst any abuse of people as a consequence of their size (or any other factor) is not acceptable, the response that avoids discussing the issue simply helps to make it impossible for people to actually see their weight as the health issue it is. I have a good friend who is basically ball shaped and we have had very open discussions - he is now heading in the down direction and was really pleased to tell me he had lost 1.5 stone the other day. That quite possibly wouldn't have happened if our relationship was 'polite'.

Mike

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #904 on: 28 November, 2018, 11:52:27 am »
Oh, let's be a bit careful with this thread. There is a risk of it becoming somewhat robust or abusive, which doesn't help.

simonp

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #905 on: 28 November, 2018, 11:55:40 am »
Because since the 70’s all we heard was fat is bad, it causes heart attacks etc so there was a massive shift from fat to carb based meals. At exactly the same time been a massive rise in obesity so there is a correlation and I believe a causation ...

And why ?

Because science shows carbs do fill an hunger gap in the short term but quickly afterwards you become hungry again, whereas fat has a much greater satiety levels and now I never snack between meals as never hungry !

Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could

So if there was a large drop in sugar/carb intake, then naturally this trend would reverse.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2015/11/carbohydrate-sugar-and-obesity-in.html


Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #906 on: 28 November, 2018, 11:58:26 am »
Oh, let's be a bit careful with this thread. There is a risk of it becoming somewhat robust or abusive, which doesn't help.

Is it ? I think this is the best debate thread on this and as not resorted to abuse

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #907 on: 28 November, 2018, 11:59:58 am »
Oh, let's be a bit careful with this thread. There is a risk of it becoming somewhat robust or abusive, which doesn't help.

I don't think anyone has been abusive. Being robust is good when someone is resolutely recommending something that could be potentially dangerous for others health, even though they will vehemently disagree that it is.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #908 on: 28 November, 2018, 12:00:04 pm »
Because since the 70’s all we heard was fat is bad, it causes heart attacks etc so there was a massive shift from fat to carb based meals. At exactly the same time been a massive rise in obesity so there is a correlation and I believe a causation ...

And why ?

Because science shows carbs do fill an hunger gap in the short term but quickly afterwards you become hungry again, whereas fat has a much greater satiety levels and now I never snack between meals as never hungry !

Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could

So if there was a large drop in sugar/carb intake, then naturally this trend would reverse.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2015/11/carbohydrate-sugar-and-obesity-in.html

Interesting read that one .... as it looks purely at sugar intake ... I would try and find similar ones for the three macro nutrients ... I suspect you may find protein intake has gone up and what happens to excess protein ? Becomes carbs

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #909 on: 28 November, 2018, 12:12:58 pm »
...and what happens to excess protein ? Becomes carbs

Protein = passion!

simonp

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #910 on: 28 November, 2018, 12:18:10 pm »
Because since the 70’s all we heard was fat is bad, it causes heart attacks etc so there was a massive shift from fat to carb based meals. At exactly the same time been a massive rise in obesity so there is a correlation and I believe a causation ...

And why ?

Because science shows carbs do fill an hunger gap in the short term but quickly afterwards you become hungry again, whereas fat has a much greater satiety levels and now I never snack between meals as never hungry !

Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could

So if there was a large drop in sugar/carb intake, then naturally this trend would reverse.

http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/2015/11/carbohydrate-sugar-and-obesity-in.html

Interesting read that one .... as it looks purely at sugar intake ... I would try and find similar ones for the three macro nutrients ... I suspect you may find protein intake has gone up and what happens to excess protein ? Becomes carbs

For those that didn’t follow the link there is one chart for carbs and one for sugar.

Meanwhile air pollution levels are associated with diabetes incidence. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpla/article/PIIS2542-5196(18)30140-2/fulltext

whosatthewheel

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #911 on: 28 November, 2018, 12:25:44 pm »
Again I refer anyone to Robert Lustig who shows this and the pathways with regards gherlin in far better way than I could

I think your relationship with science is distorted. I have done science for a living for as long as I can remember.

Science works by critical mass. The days of "a man and his equation" are long gone and even in those days, there were a lot of scientists supporting the views of Newton, so it's not a case of the genius Vs the mass of ignorants. Historically we always liked to attribute discoveries to one individual (occasionally 2, if we really can't split a Watson from a Crick) but discoveries were a product of critical mass, not a moment of genius.

Referring to an "indie" author is always dangerous. There is a reason why there is a "scientific community" and there are "commonly accepted views"... humans like to think it's all a conspiracy to keep us in the dark ages, but it's not.

Without critical mass there is no life saving open heart surgery, there is no Mars Rover, there is no Boeing Dreamliner, there are no solar cells or whatever you think it is an advancement in mankind.

Following the "individual" is what Trump and Putin have based their campaigns upon and it's not good for the advancement of mankind.


Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #912 on: 28 November, 2018, 12:28:25 pm »


Meanwhile air pollution levels are associated with diabetes incidence. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpla/article/PIIS2542-5196(18)30140-2/fulltext

Is that not a correlation though and not causation ? Also likely to be the most polluted places are in inner cities where food quality is much lower. Study was based in the US and lots of inner cities are food deserts

simonp

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #913 on: 28 November, 2018, 12:45:57 pm »


Meanwhile air pollution levels are associated with diabetes incidence. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpla/article/PIIS2542-5196(18)30140-2/fulltext

Is that not a correlation though and not causation ? Also likely to be the most polluted places are in inner cities where food quality is much lower. Study was based in the US and lots of inner cities are food deserts

This is no different to claiming a correlation between carb intake and obesity (which I already pointed out doesn’t hold since carb intake has been dropping for nearly 20 years in the US).

Why is your (non existent) correlation better than mine?

ian

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #914 on: 28 November, 2018, 12:55:56 pm »
I think the main reason we have growing levels of obesity (and the corollaries of that) is that we eat more and what we eat is more energy dense. Yes, other things have small effects, but basically we eat too much and do too little. For the extreme, take the average American portion size. Well, yeah, maybe there's a virus, maybe there's an effect from air pollution, etc. etc. but the main cause is too much food and too little exercise. FFS, I had a sandwich the other week that was so large I had to remove the majority of the filling just to fit it into my mouth. That's not normal. Washing it down with 16 fluid oz of sugar solution isn't normal. I had a BBQ platter at a restaurant in Nashville a while back, a meal so big that frankly I don't think I got through 20% of it before I threw in the napkin and admitted defeat.

Of course, this is where it gets complicated. The food industry loves all the conflicting advice, of course, those are product opportunities. Low fat becomes low carb, and have you tried our range of gluten-free drinks, and palaeo bars (it's important to keep up those energy levels when chasing a mammoth). They love food weirding. They're not out to sell broccoli (unless it's individually packaged, chocolate dipped, deep-fried Broccoli Bitez™) and that our relationship with food is broke. There's an entire industry that actively doesn't want you going home to chop up some veg and throw it in a pan.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #915 on: 28 November, 2018, 12:57:40 pm »


Meanwhile air pollution levels are associated with diabetes incidence. https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanpla/article/PIIS2542-5196(18)30140-2/fulltext

Is that not a correlation though and not causation ? Also likely to be the most polluted places are in inner cities where food quality is much lower. Study was based in the US and lots of inner cities are food deserts

This is no different to claiming a correlation between carb intake and obesity (which I already pointed out doesn’t hold since carb intake has been dropping for nearly 20 years in the US).

Why is your (non existent) correlation better than mine?

Because as I keep mentioning the pathways to how carbs impact hunger etc are well known and back up the data we have seen since the fat is bad mantra started.

So the question I ask myself is there anything I actually miss by not eating a lot of carbs - honestly nope

Do I believe that low carb harms my body - an emphatic no

Since I started my bloods are excellent when last measured, I do the same exercise I used to and actually calorie intake increased but lost weight ...

Of course this is a N=1 situation as no proper studies will ever be done that includes RCT and double blinded over 20-30 years as far too expensive 

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #916 on: 28 November, 2018, 01:00:29 pm »
Spot on Ian on all that and been an explosion of Keto and paleo processed stuff the past few years. But the beauty is I can get a piece of rib eye, flash fry it and cover in butter far quicker than cooking any of that.

Regardless of low carb or fat surely the mantra is real food, though I argue that stuff like wheat is not real as has to be highly processed for an human to eat

whosatthewheel

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #917 on: 28 November, 2018, 01:04:49 pm »
Of course, this is where it gets complicated. The food industry loves all the conflicting advice, of course, those are product opportunities. Low fat becomes low carb, and have you tried our range of gluten-free drinks, and palaeo bars (it's important to keep up those energy levels when chasing a mammoth). They love food weirding. They're not out to sell broccoli (unless it's individually packaged, chocolate dipped, deep-fried Broccoli Bitez™) and that our relationship with food is broke. There's an entire industry that actively doesn't want you going home to chop up some veg and throw it in a pan.

It's getting weirder too... now you can pay 20 pounds to have a box delivered  the size of a PC with all the ingredients and instructions that you need to prepare ONE meal. The value of the ingredients is probably a fiver profit included, packaging is probably 10 and the rest is the cost of advertising the damn thing.
They don't even think about competing in price with the "fiver", as the alternative is a takeaway that costs about 20 pounds...

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #918 on: 28 November, 2018, 01:14:47 pm »
Read a piece yesterday about everyone now assuming the age of cooking at home is over ... that is a ‘recipe’ for future health disasters

ian

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #919 on: 28 November, 2018, 01:26:24 pm »
Spot on Ian on all that and been an explosion of Keto and paleo processed stuff the past few years. But the beauty is I can get a piece of rib eye, flash fry it and cover in butter far quicker than cooking any of that.

Regardless of low carb or fat surely the mantra is real food, though I argue that stuff like wheat is not real as has to be highly processed for an human to eat

For wheat, you just grind it up?

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #920 on: 28 November, 2018, 01:28:23 pm »
Spot on Ian on all that and been an explosion of Keto and paleo processed stuff the past few years. But the beauty is I can get a piece of rib eye, flash fry it and cover in butter far quicker than cooking any of that.

Regardless of low carb or fat surely the mantra is real food, though I argue that stuff like wheat is not real as has to be highly processed for an human to eat

For wheat, you just grind it up?

Yes but then you have to take it, add other ingredients to make bread whatever ... with carrots or meat you don’t need to do that, even eggs can be eaten raw and certainly fish ....

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #921 on: 28 November, 2018, 01:35:14 pm »
So the question I ask myself is there anything I actually miss by not eating a lot of carbs - honestly nope

Do I believe that low carb harms my body - an emphatic no

Since I started my bloods are excellent when last measured, I do the same exercise I used to and actually calorie intake increased but lost weight ...


That is impossible. Scientifically impossible.

I'm not going to contribute to this anymore, I've made my point and it seems that questions posed are being ignored.

ian

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #922 on: 28 November, 2018, 01:43:12 pm »
Spot on Ian on all that and been an explosion of Keto and paleo processed stuff the past few years. But the beauty is I can get a piece of rib eye, flash fry it and cover in butter far quicker than cooking any of that.

Regardless of low carb or fat surely the mantra is real food, though I argue that stuff like wheat is not real as has to be highly processed for an human to eat

For wheat, you just grind it up?

Yes but then you have to take it, add other ingredients to make bread whatever ... with carrots or meat you don’t need to do that, even eggs can be eaten raw and certainly fish ....

Bread is just ground-up wheat, water, salt, and yeast. I wouldn't say that is highly processed.

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #923 on: 28 November, 2018, 02:08:53 pm »
Spot on Ian on all that and been an explosion of Keto and paleo processed stuff the past few years. But the beauty is I can get a piece of rib eye, flash fry it and cover in butter far quicker than cooking any of that.

Regardless of low carb or fat surely the mantra is real food, though I argue that stuff like wheat is not real as has to be highly processed for an human to eat

For wheat, you just grind it up?

Yes but then you have to take it, add other ingredients to make bread whatever ... with carrots or meat you don’t need to do that, even eggs can be eaten raw and certainly fish ....

Bread is just ground-up wheat, water, salt, and yeast. I wouldn't say that is highly processed.

I would as you can not simply get yeast

Re: Ketogenic diet - fad or phenom?
« Reply #924 on: 28 November, 2018, 02:13:36 pm »
So the question I ask myself is there anything I actually miss by not eating a lot of carbs - honestly nope

Do I believe that low carb harms my body - an emphatic no

Since I started my bloods are excellent when last measured, I do the same exercise I used to and actually calorie intake increased but lost weight ...


That is impossible. Scientifically impossible.



I am sad enough to have logged all my food and exercise during this 3 year period and I can prove it is possible.

That’s because a calorie is not a calorie and a calorie of fat is not processed in the same pathways as a carb. Which is now why

That’s not bad science or some kind of voodoo magic, the pathways are well known and accepted by all.