Author Topic: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?  (Read 9847 times)

Speshact

  • Charlie
"80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« on: May 25, 2013, 10:29:05 am »
Can I seek some statgeekery help from fellow YACFers who may be kicking their heels over the weekend?

The AA's new fact sheets for its driving instructors and trainee drivers quotes a statistic "80% of cyclists hold a driving licence and 1 in 5 drivers cycle at least once a month (National Travel Survey statistics, 2010)."

I haven't been able to source  the workings for that quote and I have my doubts about the 80% - I suspect that children have been excluded from the workings.

So far, I know from the following datasets
https://www.gov.uk/government/statistical-data-sets/nts06-age-gender-and-modal-breakdown
that (from dataset NTS0608
87% of 5-10 year olds own a bicycle
76& of 11-16 year olds own a bicycle
Under half of all 17+ own a bicycle

and from dataset NTS0609
11-16 year old males on average make 44 trips by bicycle a year, the highest use in any individual age bracket by a good margin.

I also know that "In 2010, 80% of males and 66% of females held a full car driving licence"
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/8932/nts2010-01.pdf

Can anyone help in determining the validity of the stat, and if it's wrong whqt the real stat is?
Main NTS 2010 url is https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-travel-survey-2010

Pancho

  • لَا أَعْبُدُ مَا تَعْبُدُونَ
Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2013, 10:59:09 am »
It may be incorrect but still beneficial (to us bikies).

If it breaks down a them-and-us attitude by implying that a person on a bike is the same as a person in a car, then let it run.

Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2013, 11:22:32 am »
Which means that the majority of adults that you see cycling on pavements, jumping lights etc, should know better, but either don't care or believe that the rules they learnt to pass their test don't apply when they get on a bike.

What would give them that idea?

Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2013, 11:37:31 am »
To be fair, they don't think the rules apply when they drive a car either.
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Flynn

  • Fred Killah
Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2013, 11:40:15 am »
I saw a figure this week stating 83% of UK cyclists hold driving licences, whereas 82% of the general population hold driving licences. Damned if I can find the website I read it on now though.
ap·a·thy  (p-th)
n.
1. Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.

Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2013, 11:44:29 am »
This sounds like a good question for More Or Less.

It does look like someone took that 80% figure for males with licences and assumed it would apply uniformly - and that quote doesn't mention adult males either.

If you're going to take it literally as 80% of all cyclists, then how do you define a cyclist? Someone who knows how to ride a bike? Or do you exclude the 5-10 year olds on the basis they're not generally cyclists, they are playing on a toy in the park?
Quote from: tiermat
that's not science, it's semantics.

Flynn

  • Fred Killah
Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2013, 11:52:47 am »
how do you define a cyclist?

Anyone who rides a bicycle.
ap·a·thy  (p-th)
n.
1. Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.

Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2013, 12:09:31 pm »
how do you define a cyclist?

Anyone who rides a bicycle.

How do you define rides?

Flynn

  • Fred Killah
Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2013, 01:39:15 pm »
how do you define a cyclist?

Anyone who rides a bicycle.

How do you define rides?

Gets on it and pedals it in public.
ap·a·thy  (p-th)
n.
1. Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.

Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2013, 04:19:57 pm »
It sounds plausible that 80% of cyclists in total, including children, have driving license.
People are only below legal driving age for a quarter of their lives and for the first few years of childhood they won't be cyclists. I couldn't ride a "two wheeler" until I was 5. My very first pedal strokes were done on a toy tricycle in the garden when I was about 2 or 3 (I'd have to ask mum ;D). The population is pretty stable and we're becoming a nation of oldies, which is why the retirement age is going up.
I also think that a lot of children miss out on being cyclists because parents don't think it's safe. I know very few cyclists that don't have a car and I think that most of them still have a driving licence.
To my knowledge, I can only think of two or three cyclists who have never even had a driving lesson and I am one of those.

Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2013, 05:11:21 pm »
how do you define a cyclist?

Anyone who rides a bicycle.

How do you define rides?

Gets on it and pedals it in public.

That makes no sense. Gets on it when? Ever? Just once, ride 10 yards as a child, fall off, and never get back on makes you a cyclist? If not that then where is the cutoff?

Flynn

  • Fred Killah
Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2013, 05:20:06 pm »
how do you define a cyclist?

Anyone who rides a bicycle.

How do you define rides?

Gets on it and pedals it in public.

That makes no sense. Gets on it when? Ever? Just once, ride 10 yards as a child, fall off, and never get back on makes you a cyclist? If not that then where is the cutoff?

When someone is riding a bicycle in public they are a cyclist.
ap·a·thy  (p-th)
n.
1. Lack of interest or concern, especially regarding matters of general importance or appeal; indifference.

Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2013, 05:42:04 pm »
how do you define a cyclist?

Anyone who rides a bicycle.

How do you define rides?

Gets on it and pedals it in public.

That makes no sense. Gets on it when? Ever? Just once, ride 10 yards as a child, fall off, and never get back on makes you a cyclist? If not that then where is the cutoff?

When someone is riding a bicycle in public they are a cyclist.

Can't argue with that.

Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2013, 07:55:51 pm »
Yes, seems plausible to me, and, as Pancho said, it's beneficial to cyclists that it gets quoted. It may be that children are excluded. The CTC did a survey once and found that their members are more likely than the average for the UK population to be drivers (or was it to own cars?)

That cyclists are just drivers on two wheels for the day is a useful and important message in safety and in getting mutual respect.

andygates

  • Peroxide Viking
Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2013, 08:10:56 pm »
Seems pretty obvious that it is 80% of adults

Next please.
It takes blood and guts to be this cool but I'm still just a cliché.
OpenStreetMap UK & IRL Streetmap & Topo: ravenfamily.org/andyg/maps updates weekly.

jane

  • Mad pie-hating female
Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2013, 07:29:01 am »
Why does it matter whether people who ride bikes have driving licences or not? It seems to be mentioned in an attempt to dispel this "war on the roads" that the media have built up to almost epic proportions.  "No need to fight chaps, we're all the same really."  However,   I don't think I should have to say to motorists, look, you don't really have to treat me like I have no right to share this space with you because, you know, I am just like you really. Having a driving licence merely entitles you to drive a car on public roads independently.  Not having one does not take away your entitlement to anything more than that.  So what if nobody who rides a bike ever touched a car?  They still deserve to be given the same respect owed to any other human being.  I had a driving licence once.  I have no idea where it is now, haven't driven for over 30 years and never actually owned a car.   I can probably count the number of times I have even been inside a car since this time last year, on the fingers of one hand.  If I get to the end of my life never having owned a car and never having driven one again, I will count that as a positive achievement. If I had never had a licence at all, I would be even happier.

Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2013, 05:12:32 pm »
It would be nice if 80% of licensed drivers had a cycle.  Come to that, 80% of ALL drivers, which is considerably more.

Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #17 on: May 28, 2013, 03:40:38 pm »
Why does it matter whether people who ride bikes have driving licences or not?
The reason is to counter the "cyclist have no training" argument.  You can point out that the majority of cyclists have passed a driving test and so the majority of bad riding that gets commented on must be by people who have had training.  Therefore the training must be lacking.

Speshact

  • Charlie
Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #18 on: May 28, 2013, 10:34:22 pm »
I can see that the stat is trying to dispel the 'us versus them' view that motorists who don't cycle have about people who do.

One of the things that concerns me about the AA blurb to its instructors or trainees is that it doesn't make any reference to children cycling on the road at all.

Pedaldog

  • M' back!
  • Head Banger.
Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #19 on: June 01, 2013, 09:07:37 pm »
"80% of cyclists are just having a bit of fun with their toys before getting back into sensible mode and using their car as they should be"?

jane

  • Mad pie-hating female
Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #20 on: June 04, 2013, 07:41:51 pm »
Why does it matter whether people who ride bikes have driving licences or not?
The reason is to counter the "cyclist have no training" argument.  You can point out that the majority of cyclists have passed a driving test and so the majority of bad riding that gets commented on must be by people who have had training.  Therefore the training must be lacking.
I know that is why it's said it's important.  My argument was that we shouldn't buy into this idea that people have to prove themselves worthy of being allowed on the road on a bike. The roads belong to everyone.  If we choose to drive a car on those roads, then we need to pass a test because cars have the potential to inflict serious injury and to kill.   A potential which is realised many  times every day in this country.  In fact, it could be argued the test should be harder to pass and frequent retests made to ensure we remain capable of driving to an adequate standard.  We should not buy into the myth that it is cyclists who present a real and present danger on our road because they are not properly trained by attempting to argue that they are trained.  So what if they aren't formally trained in the way drivers are?  They don't need to be.  We know that cyclists are not the real problem on the roads.  Research on the causes of collisions recently released showed that quite clearly.

Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #21 on: June 04, 2013, 09:48:29 pm »
We're not buying into that. We're answering the argument that "Only motorists are properly trained" by pointing out that most cyclists are motorists. This undermines the idea that cyclists are not trained. Once you've demolished that argument, there's nothing left to suggest that even non-driving cyclists are untrained.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2013, 10:11:04 am »
My argument was that we shouldn't buy into this idea that people have to prove themselves worthy of being allowed on the road on a bike. The roads belong to everyone.  If we choose to drive a car on those roads, then we need to pass a test because cars have the potential to inflict serious injury and to kill.
Jane,
I completely agree with the above.

However, I see this as a 2-pronged thing:

- On the one hand, stick up for our rights to be there. Don't take any shit.

- On the other, a diplomatic approach - win over hearts and minds with a "we're the same as you!" campaign. Hopefully reducing the "us and them" thing. If drivers see a cyclists as another human-being very similar to themselves, they're likely to show more consideration. I think.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Trull

  • The settee will kill you
    • Aberdeen Astronomical Society
Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2013, 10:49:55 am »
People have a built in sense of fairness and cooperation, which gets skewed by car use (thanks to the public perception being carefully moulded by the meeja) so that a stuck car in congested traffic feels annoyed rather than embarrassed at being just sat there, while other (probably better looking/slimmer/more awesome...well unless its me) people stream past and cut the odd corner.

I'm not condoning light jumping or cycling on pavements through crowds of people, but I think we have to look to the deeper reasons the media like to pick this fight, when the boring reality is that its just a little peeving to watch from the rusting tin can-mobile, and no more.

The stat makes sense to me, if you think of active cyclists who need to get about and compare that to people who use a car, the venn diagram cuts out babies and the infirm in the main, increasing the DL holder proportion.

Re: "80% of cyclists have a driving licence" Really?
« Reply #24 on: June 05, 2013, 10:57:17 am »
Edmund King of the  AA has been consistently working to unify the interests of cyclists and motorists, he is a welcome change of attitude from his predecessors. He has a welcome, simple, message: we are all road users; this deserves support.

http://www.theaa.com/public_affairs/aa-presidents-blog.html#getbritaincycling