Oi, manufacturers of electronic gear shifting, you're doing it wrong!

[LittleWheelsandBig]

I've tried Mavic Zap and Mavic Mechtronic in the past. I'll wait a fair while before trying this version of electronic shifting.

[mrcharly-YHT]

1) I don't believe it would

And here lies the problem with this thread - most people are just making assumptions without any first or even second hand experience of electronic shifting. I just thought I'd carry that on 

I'll put it another way then.

Based on my current experience with electronics (on bikes, boats and living a semi-outdoor life), I don't believe that the electronic shifters will cope with complete prolonged immersion. There is no reason why something designed for high-end bicycle racing would have that sort of protection built-in (reliable function and light weight being more important).

There may well be something produced in the future that would cope with this sort of abuse, but not yet.

[Hot Flatus]

1) I don't believe it would

And here lies the problem with this thread - most people are just making assumptions without any first or even second hand experience of electronic shifting. I just thought I'd carry that on 

You are of course spot on.
 Witness the same with those with no real experience of carbon fibre feeling they have the ability to comment on its non-suitability.

I don't doubt that within a decade electronic will be the norm for mid-range road bikes.

Here's a point though....


Why no electronic MTb kit??

[mrcharly-YHT]

I'm pretty sure I've seen pics of electronic MTB kit.

My commenting on electronic shifting is not like someone whose never used carbon fibre commenting on its suitability. I have plenty of experience of working with electric motors in damp environments.

[Hot Flatus]

Grovelling around in the bilges of some crappy old barge doesn't really relate to 21st century technology 

[mrcharly-YHT]

niiiice

I'm not in a good mood atm so please excuse me if I now come across as rude.

wtf do you know about the systems I've worked on?  Oh, absolutely nothing.

[Hot Flatus]

Are you ever in a good mood   

[tom_e]

Grovelling around in the bilges of some crappy old barge doesn't really relate to 21st century technology 

The problems of waterproofing and electronics have not fundamentally changed.  No reason it can't be done right, but it's not easy.

No reason it can't come down to more sensible prices either - electronics don't have to be expensive and the complex mechanical shifters at the handlebar are eliminated.  They're just shafting the must-have brigade for a bit at the moment.   

I'll see where it's at when my current kit wears out, but I'd need some convincing on the battery question for touring.  Then again if my bike has a single battery for the shifting, lights and GPS then I could see that working.

[Hot Flatus]

I think you are right about the shifters. Essentially they become a switch.....although of course they will never retail for less than mechanical

[spesh]

I'm pretty sure I've seen pics of electronic MTB kit.

When Di2 first came out, there were quite a few Americans having a go at hacking it:

http://www.bikeradar.com/gear/article/shimano-di2-hacking-takes-off-in-us-31445/

[Kim]

One place where I would pay good money for it (assuming good enough weather proofing) is my Rohloff-equipped MTB. I can live with grip shift as the price to be paid for the other advantages, but I'd Really, really like to go back to trigger shifters if I could. The nature of the Rohloff shifting mechanism makes it look like an ideal candidate for Eshifting to me. Unfortunately, I imagine that the market size wouldn't justify anybody doing the development work...

Wouldn't be that hard to make, all you'd need is a motor that rotates a certain number of degrees each time, or until it goes past resistance. Connect that to your 8mm nut and you're there

An electronic shifting unit already exists for the Rohloff.  I'm not sure if it's actually any good.

I should also draw your attention to a trigger-style shifter (a bi-directional ratchet thing) that appeared in one of the videos from this year's SPEZI.  I think it was a prototype.

[Kim]

Data point: Someone's Di2 system drowned on the Exmouth Exodus (known for its apocalyptic weather) last year and got stuck in the highest gear.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Data point: Someone's Di2 system drowned on the Exmouth Exodus (known for its apocalyptic weather) last year and got stuck in the highest gear.

That could be viewed as a sort of advantage. In a perverse way. A broken cable will always dump you in highest gear, but presumably an electronic system could be configured to 'crash' into a middle gear as its default failure.

[mrcharly-YHT]

Nope, it can't. Fail = stuck in the current gear.

I've done some reading and seems campag had major problems with waterproofing but their current generation has IP67 cert. Working in (temp) total immersion down to 1m. That's very impressive.

[Kim]

Data point: Someone's Di2 system drowned on the Exmouth Exodus (known for its apocalyptic weather) last year and got stuck in the highest gear.

That could be viewed as a sort of advantage. In a perverse way. A broken cable will always dump you in highest gear, but presumably an electronic system could be configured to 'crash' into a middle gear as its default failure.

What it needs (for touring and the like) is a screw you can stick your multi-tool in, or whatever, to crank it manually to a gear of choice.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Nope, it can't. Fail = stuck in the current gear.

I've done some reading and seems campag had major problems with waterproofing but their current generation has IP67 cert. Working in (temp) total immersion down to 1m. That's very impressive.

You're probably right. But I was thinking something along these lines: if there's a failure of the switch but the shifting mechanism itself still functions, then the egubbins that mediates between switch and shifter says "switch kaput, default to middle gear". Being electronic rather than simply electric, it can be "self-aware" and know it's broken, was my thought.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Data point: Someone's Di2 system drowned on the Exmouth Exodus (known for its apocalyptic weather) last year and got stuck in the highest gear.

That could be viewed as a sort of advantage. In a perverse way. A broken cable will always dump you in highest gear, but presumably an electronic system could be configured to 'crash' into a middle gear as its default failure.

What it needs (for touring and the like) is a screw you can stick your multi-tool in, or whatever, to crank it manually to a gear of choice.

That would be useful on conventional mechanical gears too.

[pcolbeck]

Data point: Someone's Di2 system drowned on the Exmouth Exodus (known for its apocalyptic weather) last year and got stuck in the highest gear.

That could be viewed as a sort of advantage. In a perverse way. A broken cable will always dump you in highest gear, but presumably an electronic system could be configured to 'crash' into a middle gear as its default failure.

What it needs (for touring and the like) is a screw you can stick your multi-tool in, or whatever, to crank it manually to a gear of choice.

What about if you extended the screw and put a lever on it then perhaps connected the end of teh lever by a bowden cable to another lever say on the down tube or handlebars, oh hang on a minute ...

[Rhys W]

Campagnolo have already thought of that: http://eps.campagnolo.com/en/technologies/ride-back-home

[Kim]

What it needs (for touring and the like) is a screw you can stick your multi-tool in, or whatever, to crank it manually to a gear of choice.

That would be useful on conventional mechanical gears too.

Doable to at least some extent with the lower limit screw.  I've only done it on a front mech, but it was sufficient to select the middle ring of a triple.  Rear mech botchery usually requires a bit of cable, though.

[Toady]

Doable to at least some extent with the lower limit screw.  I've only done it on a front mech, but it was sufficient to select the middle ring of a triple.  Rear mech botchery usually requires a bit of cable, though.

I managed to get my rear mech up a gear (or two?) when the cable went recently using the top gear limit screw.  Flat ride anyway so that was all I needed.

[clarion]

Nah.  Rear mech can easily be bodged onto a middle sprocket with a mechanical system.  Probably not the largest one, but how often do you need that?

Data point: Someone's Di2 system drowned on the Exmouth Exodus (known for its apocalyptic weather) last year and got stuck in the highest gear.

That could be viewed as a sort of advantage. In a perverse way. A broken cable will always dump you in highest gear, but presumably an electronic system could be configured to 'crash' into a middle gear as its default failure.

What it needs (for touring and the like) is a screw you can stick your multi-tool in, or whatever, to crank it manually to a gear of choice.

What about if you extended the screw and put a lever on it then perhaps connected the end of teh lever by a bowden cable to another lever say on the down tube or handlebars, oh hang on a minute ...

You may be onto summat there.

[alexb]

There's an electronic shift box for the Alfine 11 speed hub gear, it's actually cheaper than buying the mechanical hub!

One advantage of the Alfine system is that it appears to allow for multiple shift levers to be fitted, so you could have up/down button units fitted on the tops of the bars as well as the hoods.

This to me is where the future of electronic shifting lies. I don't see a need to make the shift levers look like the regular levers. The shift box could plug into the side of the lever body, or be placed wherever was most convenient.

[mattc]

What it needs (for touring and the like) is a screw you can stick your multi-tool in, or whatever, to crank it manually to a gear of choice.

That would be useful on conventional mechanical gears too.

Doable to at least some extent with the lower limit screw.  I've only done it on a front mech, but it was sufficient to select the middle ring of a triple.  Rear mech botchery usually requires a bit of cable, though.

I've never tried it, but the 'standard' botch is to shove a bit of stick in the parylellygram.

Apparently.

[contango]

But the front shifting of di2 really is very very smooth. I thought the blurb about the electronics timing the change to coincide with the chain going over the ramps and pins was bollocks but it obviously isn't.

Okay, points to them for that.

Also for eliminating the trimming of the front shifter problem.

Bung a strain gauge in there and you could delay shifting until the load eases up sufficiently.

All good stuff, but marginal gains at best.

Oh yeah , and the chain NEVER rubs the front mech

Continue denying the advantages without having tried it for as long as you like, you're fighting a losing battle

I'm sure there are advantages. It's just that to a fat rider like me the advantages don't justify the price tag.

Fair point it's s alright for me to say when I'm pretty much free to spend as much of my disposable income as I like on bikes, but I would like to make the point that the advantages are not just shaving 0.1s off your time to get ahead of a competitor, but that it's harder to get a gear change wrong when you're lazy and tired and thus makes a ride much more satisfying.
It's up to the individual how much that's worth to them, and what else they've got to spend that money on.

Good point. I tend to be more careful than I used to be about value for money since my wife and I went for a massive life simplification. If the benefits are there and I'm happy they justify the price tag I'll go for them. I like the idea of being able to have multiple shifters wherever you want them (as I understand it you could have regular brifter-like shifters as well as shifters on tribar ends and on the flats and on the downtubes and anywhere else you felt like putting them), but don't quite see how they make it harder to get a gear change wrong. If I can press the wrong part of a physical brifter surely I can press the wrong button just as easily?