Author Topic: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint  (Read 1787 times)

Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« on: July 25, 2013, 07:59:07 pm »
I am having a problem with my chain.  When I shift on to the small cogs there is a noise that I can’t get rid of - it seems not to be happy and no amount of adjusting makes any difference.  Rather it seems Ok when setting up but once under load the rattling and banging comes back.
Have I got the chain length right (not been changed since new - approx 300 miles only)? Pictures attached showing big ring at front to big cog at back and small ring at front to smallest cog at back.
DSCF2070 by wayfindergeneral, on Flickr

DSCF2069 by wayfindergeneral, on Flickr

Can anyone help please?

Phil

In my shed:
Rourke custom 653 Campag Chorus
Cannondale Synapse Campag Chorus
Sunday September Campag Centaur

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #1 on: July 25, 2013, 08:17:04 pm »
remove split link (put something thru chain to stop flying up chain tubes), slack rear mech cable off then  adjust rear mech limit screws,  re attach cable adjust tension so mech will operate over complete range of rear gears. attach chain and look at manual to adjust big to big usual rear mech is at 20 past four
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #2 on: July 25, 2013, 08:18:39 pm »
You could probably shorten the chain slightly. However, it's asking a lot of any derailleur system to cope with big front ring to big back sprocket and little front ring to little back sprocket. Your 2nd photo has the chain dangling too much - the rear derailleur can't cope because the chain is too long for that gear selection.

I tend to ride mostly in my middle front ring where you can use all the gears on the rear.  Little front ring combined with biggest 5 on rear for climbing, big front ring combined with smallest 5 on rear for big grins downhill.

Have a look at how your chain looks small front to middle of your sprocket, if it's still dangling then shorten it, 2 links at a time. Beware shortening it too much as  you can end up with a jammed chain in the big ring if you use the big rear sprockets.

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #3 on: July 25, 2013, 08:21:04 pm »
yes indeed, middle to middle normally means if chain length correct then centre of jockey wheels are about directly above each other
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #4 on: July 25, 2013, 08:58:38 pm »
Yes, have never actually used those combinations of course - just wanted to show how long the chain is.   Spend most time in the middle ring and get the noises when using the smallest 3 cogs. The  ICE instructions for fitting the chain show the read mech horizontal in the big/big position but I didn’t want to chop that much out without checking.  Can’t understand why it was this long from new.

One other thing, in the first photo, is the chain the right side of the guide between the jockey wheels?

THanks for help.
In my shed:
Rourke custom 653 Campag Chorus
Cannondale Synapse Campag Chorus
Sunday September Campag Centaur

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #5 on: July 25, 2013, 09:02:12 pm »
You could probably shorten the chain slightly. However, it's asking a lot of any derailleur system to cope with big front ring to big back sprocket and little front ring to little back sprocket.

Indeed.  I would however suggest that you need to have enough chain to not break things if you accidentally end up on big:big with any system, and ideally have this as a usable combination on recumbents (especially bikes), where chain line doesn't matter but you need a low gear to get moving, and are therefore likely to instinctively shift all the way down the cassette when stopping at short notice.


To the OP I'll note that barakta's Sprint has always been a bit reluctant about shifting to the smallest sprocket.  I'm not sure this is due to chain length, though, as we have it set so that it's a bit tight with the boom set for my leg length, and a bit loose when set to hers - about a 2cm difference - swapping between the two doesn't affect the shifting behaviour.

I've also mucked about with cable tension, limit screws, B-tension, replaced the cable and thoroughly cleaned and lubricated everything countless times, to no real effect (though a mucky parallelogram certainly doesn't help).  I'm also going to declare the cassette lockring to be Bastard Tight, on the basis that I've never succeeded in getting it off (suggestions welcome, btw).   :-[

Unless anyone has any better ideas, I'm prepared to chalk it up as an inherent feature of running a mutant 9-32 cassette...
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #6 on: July 25, 2013, 09:07:03 pm »
No, mine has always been a bit prima donnish about going to the littlest, it needs you (me that is) to be pedaling quite hard for a clean shift and like you have played with about everything, tis also easier if you are going well and shift to next smallest then smallest quickly, tis a weighty bit of chain swinging about there
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2013, 09:12:09 pm »
No, mine has always been a bit prima donnish about going to the littlest, it needs you (me that is) to be pedaling quite hard for a clean shift and like you have played with about everything, tis also easier if you are going well and shift to next smallest then smallest quickly, tis a weighty bit of chain swinging about there

Yes, exactly that!

I should probably add that once in, it stays there quite happily and doesn't seem to rattle or anything, though.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2013, 09:11:19 am »
The  ICE instructions for fitting the chain show the read mech horizontal in the big/big position but I didn’t want to chop that much out without checking.  Can’t understand why it was this long from new.

It's that long from new because the chain length also depends on how far in or out the boom is at the front.  They give you excess so you don't snap the chain if your legs are longer than typical and you use big-big.

Once you have the boom position dialled in for you, you can shorten the chain as per the instructions.  But then never lend your trike to anyone with longer legs.  You may still find small-small isn't usable because the trike has a larger than conventional tooth range with the funny rear cassette and large range front, but you might be able to free up the top few gears on the middle ring to work cleanly.

Quote
One other thing, in the first photo, is the chain the right side of the guide between the jockey wheels?

Looks ok from here.  I can't seem to view a zoomed in version without yahoo login.  The chain should only be touching the jockey wheels.  If it's running on any other bits of metal it's wrong, or you are trying to use the too small gears (which is the reason you shouldn't).

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2013, 01:41:02 pm »
The  ICE instructions for fitting the chain show the read mech horizontal

                               It isn't horizontal it (the mech) is as if you were looking at a clock and should be about 20 past the hour (or pointing at the 4), just take your time and if in doubt ring Kevin at d-tec or if he is out on a delivery ring ICE themselves, both people(s) will give you the correct advice and are very patient with people (witness my self and Cyclemans little adventures/mis haps  ;D)
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2013, 11:53:09 pm »
Tom, Quint

[/quote]
Looks ok from here.  I can't seem to view a zoomed in version without yahoo login.  The chain should only be touching the jockey wheels.  If it's running on any other bits of metal it's wrong, or you are trying to use the too small gears (which is the reason you shouldn't).
[/quote]

Happy that route of chain through rear mech is correct now. 
My concern and this request for advice is precisely because the chain length IS as set up by Kevin at D tec when I picked it up!  Will shorten chain so that my set up is the same as the ICE instructions and see what happens.  If the end result in terms of operation is not as I want I can always whip the machine down to ICE for them to have a look at it.

As long as I can use all the gears while on the middle ring with everything running smoothly I will be happy.  Using the large and small rings will only involve using the appropriate cogs of course.

Thanks again.
In my shed:
Rourke custom 653 Campag Chorus
Cannondale Synapse Campag Chorus
Sunday September Campag Centaur

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2013, 06:04:19 am »
When Kevin did Barbara's Sprint 26 NT the chain was left a tad long so as if Barbara felt the need for adjustment it was easier to take off than add on (bloody true), I was lucky when I got my first trike as it was as if it had been set up for me by Rob (sadly no longer with us) twas a trip up from sunny Oxfordshire to Manchester (ok, yes, I got lost on the test ride) but play and learn, tis all suck it and see as they say
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2013, 12:47:22 pm »
In general the shimano mech setup guides for xt/longcage mechs use the big-big (not through the mech)-and-add-two-links - the two links allows for the mech routing. You could equally route it via the mech and pull the chain tight(ish) to see how many links you can remove. This is so you can run big-big without everything disintegrating, but you could go shorter if you were very careful about gear selection. It'll probably rattle a bit but at least behave itself on small-small.

IIRC the short-cage road mech setup tends to show the mech hanging vertically approach.

FWIW you don't use the B screw to take up slack, that's used to sort out the upper jockey wheel/cassette clearance

Jobro

  • Trice TNT
Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2013, 07:20:53 pm »
That chain looks a lot too slack to me! I run a 9-36 tooth cassette and a 22 tooth granny ring on my Trice TNT and usually park it in small-small. The chain is slack, but not THAT slack and yes it will go into big-big. I get some noise in the largest two sprockets, but that may just be wear. 

Update
« Reply #14 on: August 18, 2013, 01:55:43 pm »
Right

So I have removed 3 (pairs of) links and the big/big appearance is a lot closer to the ICE instructions. But still odd noises when in the smaller sprockets.

I don’t run it in the extremes of big/big or little/little so let’s leave that out of things.
So:
1) let’s assume chain length now OK
2) get the problem with lever set to index and friction so not an indexing problem
3) can’t imagine there is a rear mech incompatability - as factory standard

What am I missing?
In my shed:
Rourke custom 653 Campag Chorus
Cannondale Synapse Campag Chorus
Sunday September Campag Centaur

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2013, 02:03:18 pm »
Alignment of chain tubes around the idler pulley?
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2013, 02:48:22 pm »
remove split link (put something thru chain to stop flying up chain tubes), slack rear mech cable off then  adjust rear mech limit screws,  re attach cable adjust tension so mech will operate over complete range of rear gears. attach chain and look at manual to adjust big to big usual rear mech is at 20 past four

             Assuming you have done the above check the following please.

              When you re attach cable do it with the rear mech on smallest cog = slackest cable (pls correct me if I am wrong peoples).
             So - you have made sure the hi/lo screws on rear mech are correct (with chain absent), you have made sure cable tension is correct so (for example) with front mech on middle cog you can access the complete rear set of cogs (make sure rear of trike is elevated - I use a padded plant pot inverted  ;D ).
            Final step is to fine tune the alignment using the barrel adjuster on the twist shifter, this usually need someone to turn the pedals gently for you so you can check each position for any slight mis alignment, this takes a little patience but should sort it.
            Btw, if you assembled it yourself do check the rear mech is attached correctly, this is not as insulting as it sounds, when I put mine together 1 I was overtired having done my night shift and had 3 hrs sleep when new trike came in its box and 2 being keen to get out on the bloody thing can cause one to (shall we say) to make the odd cock up.
            Hope the above is of use, the fine tuning is possibly the key, best wishes.
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #17 on: September 01, 2013, 07:29:13 pm »
Well everything slackened off and then set up from scratch.  Got it to run smoothly in all gears with all 3 rings in the gear combinations you actually use and acceptably in the extreme combinations that may be used occasionally.

BUT.. when on the road it all goes to hell.  No amount of fine trimming with the in-line adjuster makes it any better.

The only thing that I can think of that is altering when on the road is the movement in the rear suspension elastomer.  Whatever the reason is, I don’t think it is acceptable on a machine costing the best part of 3 grand.

Getting fed up now - not happy.
In my shed:
Rourke custom 653 Campag Chorus
Cannondale Synapse Campag Chorus
Sunday September Campag Centaur

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #18 on: September 03, 2013, 08:59:40 am »
I suggedt you ring either Kevin at D-tek or Neil at ICE, these machines aee  brilliantly designed and any problem is usually rider inflicted and so simplr as to be easily overlooked by our overcomplicatef brains, do not take offence from my comment, some of my cock ups I am to embarassed to mention. Ring them now the sunshine is going to waste
The problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so sure of themselves, and wiser men so full of doubt.

Re: Help! Problem with chain on ICE Sprint
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2013, 04:06:16 pm »
Funny you should say that.  Kevin rang me today to see if he could help and  talked me through possible causes. I had exhausted the obvious things I could think of and also the suggestions received from yourself and others but he did suggest changing the position of the elastomer to see if things improve.  Also he thought the chain could possibly be twisted.
Don’t think it is but will now try with the elastomer in the firmer settings.

I won’t take offence at the idea that I may have caused the problem myself - wouldn’t be surprised as I have previous!

Thanks again for help.  Encouraging also to see a supplier being proactive with things like this.   I would have happily recommended DTek before from my initial dealings - doubly so now.
In my shed:
Rourke custom 653 Campag Chorus
Cannondale Synapse Campag Chorus
Sunday September Campag Centaur