Author Topic: Are LCC in LaLa Land?  (Read 25490 times)

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #175 on: 30 October, 2013, 02:16:14 pm »
Maybe peopel inside are a little scared of this vision of cycling in the city..


(From the awesome bikeyface blog.)
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #176 on: 30 October, 2013, 02:18:56 pm »
Only one thing needs to change: Drivers' attitude.

Undoubtedly, but like us they've been sold a lie. Let's not forget that drivers are also people. Just people told that there is no other way and that the car represents freedom a freedom they can't have because everyone else has been told the same.

I'm usually quite calm but even I find myself a little het up while sitting in a traffic jam, add that to person on a bicycle cutting though or seemingly holding them up.  People aren't logical they are emotional beasts by nature.

We've designed our environment all wrong. I'd quite happily make every residential side street in the country 20mph (or less) and cover them in speed cameras but we could also make them less attractive as cut through's, I don't want to cycle in the lane on a busy dual carriage way or have to navigate major junctions but we do need those bits of infrastructure so how do we get people round / through them safely. If your first response is by taking the lane, going faster you are doing it wrong I think.

We've built ourselves a crap environment, one that's good for motor vehicles but rubbish for people. We need to start thinking in terms of people.
Somewhat of a professional tea drinker.


Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #177 on: 30 October, 2013, 02:24:13 pm »
Only one thing needs to change: Drivers' attitude.

Best way to achieve that: Redesign the roads.
Which is what "Going Dutch" seems to be all about - in part by segregation, in part by lowering speed limits, volumes and general busy-ness. I reckon it's the second that's really going to deliver results. Except that still doesn't address the perceived or real need for motorising my journey, due to distance, luggage, need to drop kids off to school, pick up shopping, etc etc. Without that, all the free high-speed buses and guaranteed safe cycling in the world is just tinkering at the edges. It really does look like a social catch 22.  :(
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

her_welshness

  • Slut of a librarian
    • Lewisham Cyclists
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #178 on: 30 October, 2013, 02:41:45 pm »
I'm not so sure as you are Jane that they are not committed to widepread segregation.

Adrian over on CycleChat posted this about an email he received from the LCC's Communications Manager on the matter: -

Quote
I have exchanged emails with Mike in the recent past. The most disturbing thing in this one is that the LCC believe the issue to be settled

Quote
Without high-quality separate facilities for cycling on main roads there will never be mass cycling in this country because people will be too scared to cycle

There's not a single post-industrialised country in the world that has achieved mass cycling any other way

I would argue that the pro-motoring lobbyists are delighted when cyclists insist on sharing the road, because that means more space for their cars

Sorry you don't agree, but the arguments over segregation are over – separation is essential on busy roads and at large junctions, or there will be no mass cycling

Kind Regards

Mike

Mike Cavenett
Communications Manager
London Cycling Campaign

That's definitely confirmed it that the CEoGB have infiltrated LCC  :facepalm:

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #179 on: 30 October, 2013, 02:45:44 pm »
And that's the Communications Manager? :o
Getting there...

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #180 on: 30 October, 2013, 04:16:53 pm »
...........while we can't come together as a movement and be clear on our needs and the needs of future cyclists. The hardcore I wear my road warrior badge with pride.....................................................

If you're concerned that cyclist should come together for the common good then labelling anyone who disagrees with your point of view with a ridiculous and simplistic stereotype is hardly likely to help.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #181 on: 30 October, 2013, 04:30:10 pm »
I suppose that I am fortunate here in that the cycle facilities are generally of high quality, useful and add to the cycling experience rather than detract from it.
I've read a lot of your posts on this topic, so yes, I think you are fortunate. :)

I've lived and cycled in a number of places, all with shite cycle-paths. (including parts of Flanders!) I've seen the odd decent facility, and I sometimes find it convenient to use some of the crapper ones. I've also read a lot of internet discussion from other cyclists in many parts of the UK. My non-scientific, but honest conclusion is that my experience is not unusual. And that you are very fortunate!

You say you've ridden in London a fair bit - how did you find those facilities?

Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #182 on: 30 October, 2013, 04:53:52 pm »
Cycle path or no cycle path, I have never felt as intimidated in Germany/Netherlands/Denmark as I do in GB.
There is much more to the message Go Dutch than infrastructure, imo  :thumbsup:

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #183 on: 30 October, 2013, 05:48:02 pm »
And that's the Communications Manager? :o

I've resigned my membership of LCC and made it clear that I don't want to be associated with such appalling condescension and ignorance.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #184 on: 30 October, 2013, 05:50:11 pm »
Cycle path or no cycle path, I have never felt as intimidated in Germany/Netherlands/Denmark as I do in GB.
There is much more to the message Go Dutch than infrastructure, imo  :thumbsup:

The biggest single common factor about why it is so much more pleasant to cycle in the countries your mention...


... presumption of liability.  The one thing that the 'Go Dutch' acolytes (such as the 'Cycling Embassy of GB') conveniently overlook.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #185 on: 30 October, 2013, 05:57:01 pm »
Quote
separation is essential on busy roads and at large junctions, or there will be no mass cycling

I am not a dutchman, but AFAICT, this is rather different from the level of segregation that prevails in the Netherlands

ian

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #186 on: 30 October, 2013, 06:11:25 pm »
...........while we can't come together as a movement and be clear on our needs and the needs of future cyclists. The hardcore I wear my road warrior badge with pride.....................................................

If you're concerned that cyclist should come together for the common good then labelling anyone who disagrees with your point of view with a ridiculous and simplistic stereotype is hardly likely to help.

In a thread where people are being labelled 'fundamentalist segregationists' and similar language? I think a little hyperbole to make a point is deserved, especially as davelodwig's words were the most eloquent on this thread so far.

It is about people. Not about drivers and cyclists. I've said it before. We have to see beyond our particular tribe and our particular needs.

It's worth quoting this again:

Quote
Because this argument shouldn't be segregation / no segregation it should be how do we make it safe for people to use our towns and cities however they choose.  Change road layouts, put proper paths in, restrict motor vehicles, ban trucks, whatever, let's just stop getting people killed instead of arguing on the internet.

red marley

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #187 on: 30 October, 2013, 06:37:48 pm »
I really really want to share Jane's optimism about LCC and its future strategy. I've been a member and supporter for the last 13 years but am having some doubts about future support.

When this thread first started, my feeling was that the detail of implementation is so important here. I'm not against the principle of street redesign that ends up segregating cycle traffic from motorised traffic, but clearly its success depends on how it is implemented and what other soft measures are brought into place. I was, and I think still am, willing to give LCC a chance since there is some considerable talent among its ranks.

But, there are some warning signs that leave me feeling really uneasy. The publicity surrounding the Go Dutch campaign seems to be putting a large emphasis on segregated cycle routes. The well-publiscised bus lay-by replaces cycle-motor vehicle interaction with cylce-pedestrian interaction to the detriment of both more vulnerable groups. Digging down a bit (and Jane has explained this well), there is clearly much more going on with LCC's work, but the headline stuff is at best a distraction from the much more widespread and achievable measures necessary to transform our urban environments (e.g. cycle training at school and work, pavement widening, speed control, parking restriction, line-of-sight engineering etc.). The problem with associating in people's minds 'segregation == safe' is that it implicitly reinforces the fear that 'roads == danger' and so you create a dependency on the inevitably limited mileage of separated cycle routes. I am hoping this is just a flawed LCC publicity strategy rather than actual flawed policy itself. Mike Cavenett's email, assuming it is not out of context, leaves me with no confidence in future LCC publicity though.

There is a parallel with discussion of, dare I say it, helmets in that both segregation and helmets generate huge amounts of discussion, provide an easy-to-grasp concept of cycle safety, but (in my view at least), are largely irrelevant in comparison to other aspects of behaviour and design. As tempting as it may be for LCC and others to latch on to segregation as a way of engaging infrequent and potential cyclists, I think the approach is ultimately self-defeating in that it sends the wrong message about public road space and long-term transformation of our cities.

The Hackney experience is an important one in that the transformation has occurred without a large emphasis on segregation. I am relieved to see Oliver Schick from Hackney back on the LCC Elected Policy Forum, so perhaps there is a greater plurality of influential views than one might assume from the publicity.



Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #188 on: 30 October, 2013, 07:01:59 pm »
Everyone is talking about the new cycle lane and bus stop using words that make it sound as if they know what they are talking about like

Quote
lay-by replaces cycle-motor vehicle interaction with cylce-pedestrian interaction to the detriment of both more vulnerable groups

(just one example - no personal slight intended)

The truth is, nobody knows because it hasn't been done. Today on going past I noticed that there is a raised section of the path by the stops, flattening out the difference between bike path and pavement. Do you know, that might just work? Sure it may take a little getting used to, but then everyone will take care around it, much as happens in the flattened pavement/path/road in Exhibition Road. As far as I am aware, none of the predicted carnage has occurred there. This might just be the start of something quite original - road space being used by people. I can see that some days I'll be on the road, others I might take the path.

I think we really need to see how this all pans out before panning it.

Just because cogent and broadly held views are being expressed doesn't make it right - anyone remember the Olympics?

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #189 on: 30 October, 2013, 07:04:39 pm »
That's definitely confirmed it that the CEoGB have infiltrated LCC  :facepalm:

CEoGB?

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #190 on: 30 October, 2013, 07:14:26 pm »
Oh, and another thing.

All this "mixing pedestrian and cyclist won't work". Why do you think that might happen? Yes, that's right, there's a recognition in everyone's consciousness that the cyclists are likely to contain a measure of knobheads who will ignore the needs of the more vulnerable pedestrian (at least, in a hierarchy of needs fashion). Doesn't that sound awfully familiar?

(oh and it's Cycling Embassy of Great Britain)

red marley

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #191 on: 30 October, 2013, 07:22:44 pm »
Everyone is talking about the new cycle lane and bus stop using words that make it sound as if they know what they are talking about like

The reason I mentioned it was that I was expressing concern about the presentation of new schemes and how that particular presentation creates an intersection between people getting on and off the bus with people riding on the cycle path.

I'd hope with the testing at the Transport Research Laboratory that any implemented scheme would be safer and less conflict-inducing than that mockup, but I remain concerned that it was even considered as a way to promote the future direction of LCC efforts.

hellymedic

  • Just do it!
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #192 on: 30 October, 2013, 07:32:13 pm »
That's definitely confirmed it that the CEoGB have infiltrated LCC  :facepalm:

CEoGB?

Cycling Embassy of Great Britain http://www.cycling-embassy.org.uk

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #193 on: 30 October, 2013, 07:32:26 pm »
Your response was more measured than some, but this whole thread is people talking about what they think will happen with a certainty bordering on fervour. Nobody knows what our cities will start to look like if more people take to bikes.

I've said this before, the mindset change that can happen is far broader than simply having more bums on saddles, it is acceptance of the bike and all that goes with it. The evidence to date  - the changes over the last 10 years in London - show that it can make a difference.

(and I say this as someone who prefers the A13 and Canning Town to CS2 or 3, Stratford....oops)

her_welshness

  • Slut of a librarian
    • Lewisham Cyclists
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #194 on: 30 October, 2013, 08:34:27 pm »
I really really want to share Jane's optimism about LCC and its future strategy. I've been a member and supporter for the last 13 years but am having some doubts about future support.

When this thread first started, my feeling was that the detail of implementation is so important here. I'm not against the principle of street redesign that ends up segregating cycle traffic from motorised traffic, but clearly its success depends on how it is implemented and what other soft measures are brought into place. I was, and I think still am, willing to give LCC a chance since there is some considerable talent among its ranks.

But, there are some warning signs that leave me feeling really uneasy. The publicity surrounding the Go Dutch campaign seems to be putting a large emphasis on segregated cycle routes. The well-publiscised bus lay-by replaces cycle-motor vehicle interaction with cylce-pedestrian interaction to the detriment of both more vulnerable groups. Digging down a bit (and Jane has explained this well), there is clearly much more going on with LCC's work, but the headline stuff is at best a distraction from the much more widespread and achievable measures necessary to transform our urban environments (e.g. cycle training at school and work, pavement widening, speed control, parking restriction, line-of-sight engineering etc.). The problem with associating in people's minds 'segregation == safe' is that it implicitly reinforces the fear that 'roads == danger' and so you create a dependency on the inevitably limited mileage of separated cycle routes. I am hoping this is just a flawed LCC publicity strategy rather than actual flawed policy itself. Mike Cavenett's email, assuming it is not out of context, leaves me with no confidence in future LCC publicity though.

There is a parallel with discussion of, dare I say it, helmets in that both segregation and helmets generate huge amounts of discussion, provide an easy-to-grasp concept of cycle safety, but (in my view at least), are largely irrelevant in comparison to other aspects of behaviour and design. As tempting as it may be for LCC and others to latch on to segregation as a way of engaging infrequent and potential cyclists, I think the approach is ultimately self-defeating in that it sends the wrong message about public road space and long-term transformation of our cities.

The Hackney experience is an important one in that the transformation has occurred without a large emphasis on segregation. I am relieved to see Oliver Schick from Hackney back on the LCC Elected Policy Forum, so perhaps there is a greater plurality of influential views than one might assume from the publicity.

I agree with you Jo and your sentence that I've bolded gives me great concern for what future campaigning is going to be delivered by the LCC.

Plus, the horrible taunts (which I've been hearing) of Oliver and his own ideas has been very inappropriate. Coupled with an increasing snobbishness of local LCC campaigners by HQ. Its all too apparent if you are on Twitter.


David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #195 on: 30 October, 2013, 08:54:44 pm »
I suppose that I am fortunate here in that the cycle facilities are generally of high quality, useful and add to the cycling experience rather than detract from it.
I've read a lot of your posts on this topic, so yes, I think you are fortunate. :)

I've lived and cycled in a number of places, all with shite cycle-paths. (including parts of Flanders!) I've seen the odd decent facility, and I sometimes find it convenient to use some of the crapper ones. I've also read a lot of internet discussion from other cyclists in many parts of the UK. My non-scientific, but honest conclusion is that my experience is not unusual. And that you are very fortunate!
You say you've ridden in London a fair bit - how did you find those facilities?

I grew up in London and as an 11 year old was merrily pedalling my way round the Kingston one way system (as it was before they changed it round to make it more cycle friendly).  Most of the facilities in London are poorly thought out and rarely used. There are some that are good, but most are inappropriate and would be better served with a blanket speed reduction (separation on time, not space) on the roads on which they are placed (Torrington Place I am looking at you).

It works like this - Where you have few junctions and arterial roads with relatively high speeds (30mph + where traffic can readily travel at those speeds) then space separation is a good strategy to reduce conflict. The other method should there be not room for designated space is to identify and clearly sign alternative routes that are as attractive in terms of speed and convenience to the arterial route. 

Vehicular cycling is ideal where the speeds of motor and cycle traffic are comparable - there becomes little conflict and people feel safe. Segregated routes (which must be of high quality with an appropriate design speed and priorities at junctions) can provide part of the answer, but these should either be on long arterial runs with few junctions, or entirely separate from the road (for which it is hard to find space in London) Implementing routes which are not up to the design speed for commuters (Wandle trail anyone?) is a recipe for frustration.

The key things are (in this order) 20mph limits and presumed liability, then infrastructure to identify convenient and appropriate routes away from fast traffic (how far away is a matter for debate).

"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #196 on: 30 October, 2013, 09:12:08 pm »
Another benefit to segregation that nobody seems to have hinted on: It allows cycle traffic to keep flowing when the motor vehicles are jammed.  Even a shared-use pavement can be useful in that situation, though good quality segregation that allows cycling at speed is much, much better.

Maybe you're all road-warriors with narrow drop-barred bikes and nerves of steel or something, but even some experienced cyclists don't like filtering, some cycles are impractical to filter on at the best of times, and sometimes the motorists deliberately set out to make it difficult for you.

Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #197 on: 30 October, 2013, 09:50:43 pm »
even some experienced cyclists don't like filtering...and sometimes the motorists deliberately set out to make it difficult for you.

That's me that is. Even on a Brom which is probably one of the easier bikes to filter on  :(

I'm very, very tired of battling my way to work and battling my way back. And while the Cable Street cycle path is hardly a shining example of infrastructure, it's amazing how many cyclists choose to use it, even the fully-kitted out roadies - it has proper roads running parallel to it if they wanted.

clarion

  • Tyke
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #198 on: 30 October, 2013, 10:15:35 pm »
Another benefit to segregation that nobody seems to have hinted on: It allows cycle traffic to keep flowing when the motor vehicles are jammed.  Even a shared-use pavement can be useful in that situation, though good quality segregation that allows cycling at speed is much, much better.

Maybe you're all road-warriors with narrow drop-barred bikes and nerves of steel or something, but even some experienced cyclists don't like filtering, some cycles are impractical to filter on at the best of times, and sometimes the motorists deliberately set out to make it difficult for you.

Heard of Bus Lanes?  They have the added advantage of being wide enough, and regularly swept.
Getting there...

Kim

  • Timelord
    • Fediverse
Re: Are LCC in LaLa Land?
« Reply #199 on: 30 October, 2013, 10:19:11 pm »
Yes, I like bus lanes for exactly that reason.

Unfortunately, they tend to have buses in them.