Author Topic: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF  (Read 8490 times)

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #25 on: February 02, 2014, 05:35:00 pm »
It's not just a TV problem, I went to see the Gent Wevelgem this year, women's race was just before the men's. Tried looking up on internet for the women's result on cyclingnews and they didn't even mention the race at all!

I definitely happened, I was there...



Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #26 on: February 02, 2014, 05:58:11 pm »
however for the non-cyclist, watching road cycling is not very interesting.

I totally agree with you on this point. The TdF is more than a road race. It's also a huge touristic showcase for our country. Having said this, the question as whether
the racers are male or female seems less relevant.

TimC

  • Bike pilot
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #27 on: February 02, 2014, 06:28:10 pm »
The mountain stages are the big USP of the TdF. They're gorgeous to look at, and it's amazing how humans can actually race up them.

Would you want to watch another bunch of (slightly slower) riders race up the same hills?

people watch endless repetitive football matches, don't they?

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #28 on: February 02, 2014, 06:38:16 pm »

people watch endless repetitive football matches, don't they?

Tends to be men though...

TimC

  • Bike pilot
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #29 on: February 02, 2014, 06:48:25 pm »
Doesn't matter who's doing the watching, as long as the money people get the audience numbers they're looking for. In any case, first class soccer seems to have an increasing female audience. However, like cycling, women's soccer (and cricket) is struggling to get any audience at all.

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #30 on: February 02, 2014, 07:45:56 pm »
Have you watched women's soccer, it's awful!

Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #31 on: February 02, 2014, 09:44:34 pm »
Have you watched women's soccer, it's awful!
Yes, I have, and some of it is much better than the men's (eg women's England team).
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


jane

  • Mad pie-hating female
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #32 on: February 06, 2014, 12:26:53 pm »
About twenty years ago Lianne Sanderson, ex Arsenal and England player, was in one of the  infant classes I taught...watching her, aged 5, run out on to the playground and run rings round the Year 6 boys on the football pitch at playtimes was an inspiration to the other girls in that school, and a good lesson in anti sexism for the teachers.   Years after, they were still producing a good proportion of girl players compared to to other schools in the area.  Role models are immensely important.
Have you watched women's soccer, it's awful!
Yes, I have watched it, and I bet a lot more of it than you have.  But perhaps you are trolling, here, because you find it amusing to derail a thread which attempts to deal with sexism in sport.  Because that's such a trivial, funny subject, not worth anyone attempting to comment upon intelligently, I guess.
Anyway, came back to this thread to post this, really,  an email I received,

Jane,
Last summer I helped launch a group called Le Tour Entier (LTE) and a petition on Change.org asking for women to be included in the Tour de France.
Because 97,000 of you signed our petition, the Tour de France organisers were willing to meet with us. I’m happy to report that women will be included in the 2014 event! Thank you!

Women will be allowed to compete in La Course, a shorter stage of the race on July 27th. This is a huge step toward including women in the full race.
The women who coordinated this campaign with me also wanted to share their appreciation:

Current Olympic and world road champion Marianne Vos: “Le Tour is the pinnacle of professional cycling and this race is the start of an exciting new time for women’s cycling. I have no doubt that this race will help change the face of women's cycling.”

Olympic silver medalist Emma Pooley: “As a rider, it's a great opportunity to be involved with the greatest cycling event in the world and I'm looking forward to the race already. It's also a tribute to the many cycling fans who want to see more high-level women's racing, and who supported us in Le Tour Entier.”

Four-time world ironman champion Chrissie Wellington: “It's been an absolute honour to work with A.S.O, and all the other members of the LTE team, to develop the race and I am beyond excited that all our dreams are becoming a reality!"

Thank you for helping us take this historic step forward for women’s equality. Thank you for helping us make history -- your continued support will be crucial in allowing women’s teams in the full Tour de France.

Sincerely,
Kathryn Bertine


It's a start.

Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #33 on: February 06, 2014, 01:14:34 pm »
This totally misses the point. Professional sports is about being paid to perform a service, in the case of road cycling it is effectively mobile billboards. If the demand from business was there then there would be a female grand tour ( doesn't have to be in France). Happy to support equality in amateur sports but as soon as it becomes professional then "he who pays the piper..."
Is that why the FA felt it necessary to kill professional women's football in 1921? Because there was no demand? Nothing to do with complaints from male teams about the commercial competition?

Sometimes, there's no demand because there's no supply, & hence nobody knows they'd like it. How much demand was there for the Walkman before it was invented? The people who decide what to sponsor aren't always completely rational, or know all that they should.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

TimC

  • Bike pilot
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #34 on: February 06, 2014, 02:46:46 pm »
Have you watched women's soccer, it's awful!

What a ridiculous comment! It's awful because it's played by women? Can you substantiate that in any way? I'm no soccer fan, but the few women's games I've watched on TV seem to have demonstrated exactly the same skills as men's soccer. Only the lack of a large crowd making huge amounts of noise might be interpreted as diminishing the spectacle somewhat, but there's certainly nothing wrong with the skills on display - and why would there be?

Women's cycling is no less exciting to watch than men's. The fact that the average speeds may be a couple of kmh slower has absolutely no bearing on the quality of the racing. It's simply prejudice and lack of access that keeps audiences away. Where the opportunities are equal - track championships, the Tour series etc - women's cycling gets every bit as much enthusiastic support as men's. At last, some of the marketing people are beginning to cotton on.

Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2014, 03:58:33 pm »
Sometimes, there's no demand because there's no supply, & hence nobody knows they'd like it.
The womens olympic games at hampden didnt sell well at all. The mens games all sold out. I guess sometimes no demand is a reflection on the appetite, not just the supply.

Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #36 on: February 07, 2014, 08:22:27 am »

Posted by: Pedal Castro: February 02, 2014, 07:45:56 PM »

Have you watched women's soccer, it's awful!

Yes, I have and I didn't find it awful, in fact it was refreshing to watch a game of soccer where the players accepted the referee's decisions, players didn't roll about on the floor after innocuous contact with an opponent and there was an absence of the "professional" foul.   I found it very entertaining to watch.
I have also watched women's road racing and again some of it has been more entertaining than the male equivalent.   I particularly remember the Worlds in Australia and Belgium, the women's Olympic Road Race was good too.
I'm looking forward to seeing them race around the Champs Elysee in July.         
 

jane

  • Mad pie-hating female
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #37 on: February 08, 2014, 06:44:06 am »
Good to hear people commenting about women's sport seriously, using examples from the real world, rather than echoing tired old stereotypes for a cheap laugh, because that's what "blokes" are meant to do.  "Blokes" don't have to behave like that, and good to see some of you know that.  (I am assuming some of these comments come from men!)  Ditching those stereotypes would make a better world for everyone in the long run.

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #38 on: February 08, 2014, 11:56:22 am »
But perhaps you are trolling, here, because you find it amusing to derail a thread which attempts to deal with sexism in sport.  Because that's such a trivial, funny subject, not worth anyone attempting to comment upon intelligently, I guess.

Jane, just because some post an alternate view to your own, it doesn't mean that they are trolling. You could refute the views, ask for clarifications, reiterate your original point of view etc, but succumbing to petty insults does you no favours. Just in case you missed my other comments in this thread:

This totally misses the point. Professional sports is about being paid to perform a service, in the case of road cycling it is effectively mobile billboards. If the demand from business was there then there would be a female grand tour ( doesn't have to be in France). Happy to support equality in amateur sports but as soon as it becomes professional then "he who pays the piper..."

PC, I have a different point of view. There's no demand from business for female sports because.... spectators are accustomed to watch male-only sports. Things can only
change if some people decide to break out the old habits.

I understand (and to some extent agree) your point of view, however for the non-cyclist, watching road cycling is not very interesting. You could use your argument for women's hockey or netball, particularly as far more women play those sports week in week out. If I were a TV exec, marketing man etc, tthese sports are where I would put my money.

It's not just a TV problem, I went to see the Gent Wevelgem this year, women's race was just before the men's. Tried looking up on internet for the women's result on cyclingnews and they didn't even mention the race at all!

Yes the women's soccer comment was more subjective and not particularly relevant but seems to have promoted more "debate" than the other more considered posts...what does that say about some of the other posters here?

Ditching those stereotypes?!
(I am assuming some of these comments come from men!)

jane

  • Mad pie-hating female
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #39 on: February 08, 2014, 08:35:32 pm »
Have you watched women's soccer, it's awful!
That was the comment to which I referred and I make no apologies for letting you know I found it annoying.  And I did explain why, I think.  I didn't comment on your other posts, no. Is there some rule on the forum that says comment on one, comment on all?  You made a comment that irritated me, I told you. End of, surely.  It wasn't an argument you made, it was a throwaway comment probably based on a few games you have seen.  And it made me think that you were now fed up with this whole discussion (it came after your more calculated comments) and it possibly wasn't worth debating anymore.  You may not have meant that, but that's the impression that particular comment gave. 
And, you know what, your reply to me is also pretty irritating.  Please don't patronise me by explaining the niceties of internet behaviour and argument. (I accept you may not mean to patronise me, but again, that's how it feels.)  Your comment about women's football confused me precisely because it didn't fit with your previous comments... hence my musing on whether you might be trolling. I didn't say you definitely were, but was surprised that you suddenly threw in such a throwaway comment, which as you say yourself, promoted more debate than the others. Why was that do you think?
And,your last comment, which seems to imply I am being hypocritical in making assumptions about men...all I meant was that I assumed the non sexist comments in a few of the posts were made by men when in fact, I didn't know the sex of at least one of the posters.  So don't quite understand what point you were trying to make there.  Anyway, I have spent over fifty years in a world full of stereotypes and would not claim to be completely free of their influences.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #40 on: February 08, 2014, 08:59:01 pm »
Perhaps it means that he holds a complex, nuanced position that doesn't deserve to be branded as trolling?

Perhaps being a woman and claiming to work for equality does not give you the right to make throwaway accusations of trolling at those with whom you disagree?

Personally, since we're dealing with impressions rather than hard facts, I can't get over the fact that this is the only time I can ever remember seeing you on the racing board.  If I got the impression that you were a fan of bike racing in general and were trying to change it from within, it would be a very different matter.  As it is, it feels like you want to impress your principles upon something for which you don't usually care - and that makes it a lot harder for me to take you seriously here.

Eccentrica Gallumbits

  • Rock 'n' roll and brew, rock 'n' roll and brew...
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #41 on: February 08, 2014, 10:04:30 pm »
Can you give us the Mr Bunbury Approved List of Things Women Are Allowed to Comment On And Be Taken Seriously then please?
My feminist marxist dialectic brings all the boys to the yard.


Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #42 on: February 09, 2014, 12:10:29 am »
The same as for anyone: things they know about and have an interest in, rather than things that just form a convenient front in some imagined battle of the sexes.

Ruth

Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #43 on: February 09, 2014, 12:27:13 am »
PC, I have a different point of view. There's no demand from business for female sports because.... spectators are accustomed to watch male-only sports. Things can only
change if some people decide to break out the old habits.

Yep.

I stopped watching the Tour after Prince Contador got caught cheating.  It was just once too often, and all the romance, excitement and awe was taken out of watching the thing.  After Pantani, Ulrich, all the others, betraying me with their cheating, I'd had enough.  If I want to watch humans performing extraordinary feats of endurance using magic drugs, I can do that at work ta very much.

Show me women doing a clean two week grand tour, including mountain stages, time trials, the works, and dammit you'd not get me away from the telly.  I'd bloody love that!  Imagine the suffering, the determination, the sheer grit required, only it would be women instead of men?  What's not to love there?  I don't believe for a second that women wouldn't be capable.  We're actually better at ultra-endurance events than men, and we can so do pain. 

The sponsors are just missing a trick here.  The Tour has been a men's event since it started, and yes there've been a few women's Tours that have come and gone.  None of them have been as demanding (that I can recall) as the Tour or the Giro.  It's a vicious circle of no money, no airtime, no pros, and a harder fight all the way for women.  If only there was an organisation with the money and vision to make this happen, it'd be so awesome. 

jane

  • Mad pie-hating female
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #44 on: February 09, 2014, 08:41:46 am »
Mr B ..I don't intend to get into a multi post personal argument here with you...you do seem to enjoy those don't you, but I am guessing everyone else finds it pretty boring.  But I will take one post to remind you that you don't know me personally, therefore cannot comment on my cycling experience, history and knowledge... don't assume I know nothing and have had no experience of racing, throughout my life.  I have been riding a bike for a long time, nearly fifty years.  Part of the reason I am so interested in women's racing now is due to my early experiences as a young woman, back in the 70's. 
As for this being the only time I have commented on the Racing board, again you are wrong...a cursory check would have shown you that.  I may not have commented as often as others, but that is still no evidence for your careless assumption that I am using it as a "convenient front" for my views about sexism in racing.  I don't have the  spare time to post on any board, or any forum that frequently.  My rate of posting here just reflects that, nothing more. 

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #45 on: February 09, 2014, 09:08:46 am »
I've watched women racing off and on since the late '80s. A former Tour de France Feminin podium rider prepared by racing in the same bunches as me. Sometimes women's racing is interesting, aggressive and competitive but most times the racing I've watched has been tactically inept, timid and slow. Things have been getting a bit better recently and about bloody time too.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

jane

  • Mad pie-hating female
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #46 on: February 09, 2014, 09:35:05 am »
I would agree with you, LWAB.  Which is why I am pleased about some of these latest developments...the incipient talent was always there, but it takes more than individual talent and drive to make women's racing as good as it could be.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #47 on: February 09, 2014, 12:55:38 pm »
As for this being the only time I have commented on the Racing board, again you are wrong...a cursory check would have shown you that.

Glad to hear it.

You've got a grand total of 71 posts in Freewheeling, and all the times you've posted on the racing board* have been about some aspect of female under-representation.  Sorry, but I still feel like I'm being preached at.  We're all allowed to have our particular passions but if you want to generate interest in the women's game, reciprocity demands you show some interest in the men's game too, no? 

*The ones  found before I got bored – and with the exception of one: “No stage over Sleightholme Moor” 

jane

  • Mad pie-hating female
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #48 on: February 09, 2014, 04:30:21 pm »
From now on, Mr B, post stuff like this to me as a PM.  Then I can cheerfully ignore it and others don't have to be bored by it.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #49 on: February 09, 2014, 05:31:10 pm »
And back on topic. There won't be a womens TdF until there is the will to pay for it. Petition all you like but unless TV is prepared to pay for coverage and sponsors are prepared to pay for the  race it isn't going to happen.

"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes