Author Topic: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF  (Read 8680 times)

mattc

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #75 on: February 12, 2014, 11:16:02 am »
...
So at least part of the actual current differences between men and women's performance in road cycling may be due to the much smaller number of women who initially participate in competitive cycling at the non-elite level.
...
Yes of course. But there have been a lot of studies on inherent ability that show a big difference. I think 10% is the commonly quoted figure - I don't have sources to hand, but even if it was only 5% that is huge in elite sport.

The number of participants is a bigger issue in terms of the depth of ability/competitiveness - see Mr B's example of this problem. I don't think anyone would describe those 2-horse races as "as good as" the equivalent mens races. Now obviously this is a vicious circle - get more women competing and the depth will improve. But you can only sell sport on the state it is currently in - spectators and sponsors aren't interested in a sport that will be really good to watch in 10 years time.
Has never ridden RAAM
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No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

TimC

  • Bike pilot
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #76 on: February 12, 2014, 11:38:26 am »
I think that's why women's racing is better included on the bill at what would have been men-only races, particularly where there are already mixed-ability races. Let the women develop in a bigger pool than currently exists, allow them to gain the racing and tactical skills that will make women-only races more interesting, and encourage the depth that will eventually result in better and bigger races at the newly-improved elite level.

In the meantime, if it's truly not sensible to allow elite women to race at the same time as elite men at major races, at least get women's races on the same bill so that they get exposure.

mattc

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #77 on: February 12, 2014, 11:48:21 am »
[EDIT: in response to TimC's post, the one immediately before this. My apologies if this is not clear:]


The only way I can see this dragging the best women up is if they race against men of equal ability (i.e. 5-10% slower than the top men). Is that what you're suggesting?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

fuzzy (retd.) AAGE

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #78 on: February 12, 2014, 01:35:12 pm »
The only way I can see this dragging the best women up is if they race against men of equal ability (i.e. 5-10% slower than the top men). Is that what you're suggesting?

Like a fair proportion of the peleton on the climbs?
Quote from: tatanab
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mattc

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #79 on: February 12, 2014, 02:30:43 pm »
The only way I can see this dragging the best women up is if they race against men of equal ability (i.e. 5-10% slower than the top men). Is that what you're suggesting?

Like a fair proportion of the peleton on the climbs?
Confused. We were talking about promoting womens races (or more specifically TimC's ideas), and now you're making some random point about mens performance on climbs.
What IS your point?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

fuzzy (retd.) AAGE

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #80 on: February 12, 2014, 02:46:13 pm »
The only way I can see this dragging the best women up is if they race against men of equal ability (i.e. 5-10% slower than the top men). Is that what you're suggesting?

Like a fair proportion of the peleton on the climbs?
Confused. We were talking about promoting womens races (or more specifically TimC's ideas), and now you're making some random point about mens performance on climbs.
What IS your point?

My point is that a womens race could be run in conjunction with a mens race in some circumstances. Some seem to be arguing that the difference between elite men and elite women is too big (I may be wrong in my take on their argument) and you made the observation The only way I can see this dragging the best women up is if they race against men of equal ability (i.e. 5-10% slower than the top men). as a question to a previous post. I just noted that most of the pro peleton were that 5-10% slower than the top climbers. Therfore, a womens race running in conjunction with a mens race would have their top finishers finishing in the main bunch on a climb.
Quote from: tatanab
The mark of a true cyclist - prepared to try anything on offer

If it ain't bad for you it ain't worth doing

mattc

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #81 on: February 12, 2014, 02:55:58 pm »
Ah, OK. Well that wasn't really what my comment was addressing, so this has got a bit confused.(I was replying to TimC's idea). My brain's not upto unpicking the various strands at the moment!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

fuzzy (retd.) AAGE

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #82 on: February 12, 2014, 03:00:27 pm »
Ah, OK. Well that wasn't really what my comment was addressing, so this has got a bit confused.(I was replying to TimC's idea). My brain's not upto unpicking the various strands at the moment!

I know the feeling  ;D
Quote from: tatanab
The mark of a true cyclist - prepared to try anything on offer

If it ain't bad for you it ain't worth doing

Pedal Castro

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #83 on: February 12, 2014, 04:47:01 pm »

My point is that a womens race could be run in conjunction with a mens race in some circumstances. Some seem to be arguing that the difference between elite men and elite women is too big (I may be wrong in my take on their argument) and you made the observation The only way I can see this dragging the best women up is if they race against men of equal ability (i.e. 5-10% slower than the top men). as a question to a previous post. I just noted that most of the pro peleton were that 5-10% slower than the top climbers. Therfore, a womens race running in conjunction with a mens race would have their top finishers finishing in the main bunch on a climb.

Ah but they (the men) are not 5-10% slower on the climbs due to lack of ability, they are slower because they are conserving energy, no need to bust a gut up the mountains so they go as slow as they can to just get within the time limit.

Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #84 on: February 12, 2014, 05:25:02 pm »
You could have a women's race combined with a men's, starting later on the same course such the women's race finished a few minutes or so before the men in the same place.  Or handicap the start times so they are scheduled to finish at the same time...

Or to be a bit more radical have all tdf teams made up of 9 men and 9 women, so the team classification was dependent on the overall performance.

TimC

  • Bike pilot
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #85 on: February 12, 2014, 06:04:56 pm »
[EDIT: in response to TimC's post, the one immediately before this. My apologies if this is not clear:]


The only way I can see this dragging the best women up is if they race against men of equal ability (i.e. 5-10% slower than the top men). Is that what you're suggesting?
Possibly! It may not be possible or appropriate for elite races, but we already have races that accommodate 1st to 3rd cats, for instance. In those there will be a fairly large spread of ability, and the better 3rd cats will indeed be dragged up by the 1sts. It may well be workable to have, say, 1st cat women in that bunch.

I'm not presenting a finished, thought-through solution, just bunging ideas in the pot for discussion. The main point is that somehow or other things need to be done differently to a) attract more women to the sport and b) give them the races and support they deserve.

Pedal Castro

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #86 on: February 12, 2014, 07:54:38 pm »
Not sure what happens now but I rode many races against women in 3/J/W or 3/V/W races in the early '80s. I think that there were not separate categories for women then.

TimC

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #87 on: February 12, 2014, 10:42:16 pm »
Actually, sod the putative women's TdF, the upcoming women's ToB seems to be the most prestigious women's race around just now. And why not? Why shouldn't the ToB be the one everyone looks up to and wants to ride?

BC have just released this teaser video (footage mostly from the Tour series, I think):

http://www.youtube.com/embed/JRc79kVeVWY

Karla

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #88 on: February 12, 2014, 11:10:17 pm »
You could have a women's race combined with a men's, starting later on the same course such the women's race finished a few minutes or so before the men in the same place.  Or handicap the start times so they are scheduled to finish at the same time...

Or to be a bit more radical have all tdf teams made up of 9 men and 9 women, so the team classification was dependent on the overall performance.

TdF does TLI  :thumbsup:

mcshroom

  • Mushroom
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #89 on: February 15, 2014, 11:43:20 am »
The historic issue with competitive women's cycling was the low participation rates leading to imbalanced races that didn't develop riders - whats the point of turning up to get a kicking week on week? And how do you develop tactical nous when you are strong enough to just ride away from the rest of the field?

This is changing as participation increases - and as the racing becomes more of a spectacle, there will be an increase in sponsorship. Probably not much - look how hard it is to put on a top level (Premier Calendar) men's race.

I was chatting about this with clubmates of both sexes in the pub at the weekend.  We've had all those issues down here: whereas in the local men's races there were enough amateurs within travelling distance of the track that an average race would have a few people capable of winning it.  In the women's races on the other hand, it was always the same pair who'd ride off the front, because the small size meant that there wasn't anyone else good enough to chase them down. 
From everyone else: "Oh no, let's just watch A and B win again"
From A and B: "Oh no not another 2-up TT, we'll never improve our tactics like this"

A and B then got their 1st cat, got excluded from the 234 races and had to travel all round the country to get points.  While this is a problem for the men too ("Getting his first cat was the worst thing he ever did"), the reduced field has made it even more of a drag for A and B - though at least they're getting to do more than 2-ups now. 

Hopefully the rise in women holding racing licences and women's races reported here will go some way to reducing these problems (what's with the silly picture though)
http://road.cc/content/news/111157-womens-racing-increase-23-cent-rise-female-held-licences-last-year
Climbs like a sprinter, sprints like a climber!

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #90 on: March 10, 2014, 11:11:53 am »
Woman invited to compete in men's grand tour
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Quote
Despite being ruled outside the time limit on the eighth stage after her handlebars snapped – she used part of a broom-handle provided by a bystander to improvise – Colombo convinced the race jury to let her continue, albeit outside the general classification.
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jane

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #91 on: March 16, 2014, 06:44:39 am »
What a terrific story, Cudzo...I had never heard of this woman...thanks for posting.

Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #92 on: March 16, 2014, 10:42:45 pm »
Lets hope that if the Womens Tour comes about they come up with some decent prizes. This was what Lizzy A and the other podium placers won in a World Cup race. Yup, thats a vacuum cleaner for the win and various household appliances for the runners-up.

Working my way up to inferior.

jane

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #93 on: March 17, 2014, 07:43:43 am »
Lets hope that if the Womens Tour comes about they come up with some decent prizes. This was what Lizzy A and the other podium placers won in a World Cup race. Yup, thats a vacuum cleaner for the win and various household appliances for the runners-up.


No...you must be joshing surely?  That can't be true? has to be a joke...splutter, rage, splutter. spit, splutter. Speechless.
Please tell me you are just trying to get the feminists all wound up... I would forgive you, honest.  It's a preferable scenario to this being true.

Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #94 on: March 17, 2014, 10:18:49 am »
Sorry Jane, 100% true, although there was prolly a bit of cash involved. At least I bloody hope there was.
Working my way up to inferior.

LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #95 on: March 17, 2014, 11:04:18 am »
Prizes for Tour de France stage winners have included 'their weight in cheese', complete with photos of the winner sitting on the scales. If a major sponsor of the race was an appliance manufacturer or retailer, those prizes make sense.
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David Martin

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Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #96 on: March 17, 2014, 11:06:35 am »
And various livestock and so on. It depends on the sponsor and is an opportunity for product showcasing.
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #97 on: March 18, 2014, 07:43:54 am »
Lets hope that if the Womens Tour comes about they come up with some decent prizes. This was what Lizzy A and the other podium placers won in a World Cup race. Yup, thats a vacuum cleaner for the win and various household appliances for the runners-up.


No...you must be joshing surely?  That can't be true? has to be a joke...splutter, rage, splutter. spit, splutter. Speechless.
Please tell me you are just trying to get the feminists all wound up... I would forgive you, honest.  It's a preferable scenario to this being true.

Unless there's more information than an oddly staged photo on the Internet and one person saying it is true, for my sanity I will choose to believe it's a wind up unless there is more documented proof. As far as sponsorship is concerned, of the legible items one is Phillips one is AEG, so again, no.

Had it been true I feel certain there would have been more adverse publicity surrounding it. Your instinct is almost certainly right, it is a setup of some nature.

jane

  • Mad pie-hating female
Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #98 on: March 18, 2014, 08:14:38 am »
Surely  there would have been more adverse publicity if true.. Ms Armitstead's arrest for attempted murder of race sponsors by strangulation with a hoover tube would surely have merited a couple of lines in the sports news.
    I can't find it anywhere...where did you get the photo, Biff?

Re: Pooley's Petition for a Women's TdF
« Reply #99 on: March 18, 2014, 08:31:38 am »

    I can't find it anywhere...where did you get the photo, Biff?

Scraped off the bottom of the Internet  ;)  Google image search doesn't find it either (hosting is via a Twitter image host)