Author Topic: With friends like these...  (Read 1768 times)

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
With friends like these...
« on: August 14, 2014, 10:54:24 am »
Top gear to the rescue of cyclists..

http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article4175840.ece

I think the term 'A Maysian conclusion' [1] should be used more when talking about the standard of cycle facilities.

..d

[1] Complete bollocks
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #1 on: August 14, 2014, 11:00:54 am »
I like this bit..

"He added, however, that many cycle lanes found on roads were “complete bollocks” and created confusion rather than improved safety. Urban planners should spend more time riding bikes to understand what was needed, he said."

Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

Si_Co

Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #2 on: August 14, 2014, 11:09:46 am »
Urban planners should spend more time riding bikes to understand what was needed, made to use the facilities they design for a month at rush hour post construction

my bold, my opninion

red marley

Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2014, 11:24:26 am »
I'd take issue with this bit though...

Quote
In any case, roads are funded centrally so the tax [from Vehicle Excise Duty] doesn’t actually go on roads, so no one has a greater right to the road than anybody else, that’s nonsense.

While 'no one' has a greater right, I think we do have greater rights to use (non-motorway) roads as pedestrians or as cyclists than we do as car drivers. This is not just a case of pedantry ('licence' to drive a vehicle etc.), but a need to recognise priority in the provision of urban space in particular. I think it is desirable to shift the tone of debate to one where the default assumption is that streets are there for us on foot (or supported by wheelchair and other mobility aids where necessary), and that we design in provision for us in other modes around that with a clear order of precedence: by bicycle - by public transport - by private motorised transport. A simple "everything has an equal right to be on the road" argument tends to favour motorised transport whenever there is competition for shared space.

Riggers

  • Mine's a pipe, er… pint!
Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2014, 11:27:53 am »
I rather get the feeling (or whiff) of a slow news day, and the newspaper senses an article with 'cycling' will generate responses.

Cyclists • Cars • At loggerheads • Lets end this once and for all • Oh, and cycle lanes for good measure
Certainly never seen cycling south of Sussex

Regulator

  • That's Councillor Regulator to you...
Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2014, 11:50:57 am »
I'd take issue with this bit though...

Quote
In any case, roads are funded centrally so the tax [from Vehicle Excise Duty] doesn’t actually go on roads, so no one has a greater right to the road than anybody else, that’s nonsense.

While 'no one' has a greater right, I think we do have greater rights to use (non-motorway) roads as pedestrians or as cyclists than we do as car drivers. This is not just a case of pedantry ('licence' to drive a vehicle etc.), but a need to recognise priority in the provision of urban space in particular. I think it is desirable to shift the tone of debate to one where the default assumption is that streets are there for us on foot (or supported by wheelchair and other mobility aids where necessary), and that we design in provision for us in other modes around that with a clear order of precedence: by bicycle - by public transport - by private motorised transport. A simple "everything has an equal right to be on the road" argument tends to favour motorised transport whenever there is competition for shared space.

I agree - but I also think the fact that a renowned petrolhead is publicly stating that the 'Road Tax' myth is complete bollocks is a big step forward.
Quote from: clarion
I completely agree with Reg.

Green Party Councillor

red marley

Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2014, 11:56:01 am »
Sure. It's a step forward, and generally a positive one to be welcomed.

I just think we need to head off the superficially attractive argument of "just treat everyone equally" before it gains too much orthodoxy. A bit like challenging the Niceway Code stuff that had failed to recognise that there is an asymmetry in responsibility when it comes to safety matters on the road.

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2014, 11:57:24 am »
Indeed, streets are fundamentally for people, not machines. People walk by default. The biggest failure we suffer is the too-ready acceptance of the assumption that streets are somehow for cars. For driving, for parking. People become an afterthought. You can't even walk on pavements around here, they've been co-opted for parking on the narrow roads. So, of course, the grim corollary is that everyone who can drives. Apparently to stop the practice would 'inconvenience residents.'
!nataS pihsroW

Guy

  • You can trust me - I work for the government
Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2014, 12:55:38 pm »
Urban planners should spend more time riding bikes to understand what was needed, made to use the facilities they design for a month at rush hour, preferably during the winter, post construction

my bold, my opninion
My red, my opinion :thumbsup:
What duck?

Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2014, 01:10:52 pm »
Sure. It's a step forward, and generally a positive one to be welcomed.

I just think we need to head off the superficially attractive argument of "just treat everyone equally" before it gains too much orthodoxy. A bit like challenging the Niceway Code stuff that had failed to recognise that there is an asymmetry in responsibility when it comes to safety matters on the road.

"Treat everyone equally" is a good concept, but obviously doesn't work so well if it's a George Orwell "treat some more equally than others".  Allocation of roadspace is what a lot of this is about - and in pedestrian and cyclist dense congested areas it's more efficient to allocate space to those pedestrians and cyclists than motor vehicles.  That's where the focus of attention should be in my view - and things like the "space for cycling" campaign are trying to address it.

tiermat

  • According to Jane, I'm a Unisex SpaceAdmin
Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2014, 01:44:48 pm »
Call me a cynic, if you like, but I have to ask "Is a new series of Top Gear about to start?"
I feel like Captain Kirk, on a brand new planet every day, a little like King Kong on top of the Empire State

Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2014, 01:49:03 pm »
You're a cynic.

tiermat

  • According to Jane, I'm a Unisex SpaceAdmin
Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2014, 02:10:42 pm »
I feel like Captain Kirk, on a brand new planet every day, a little like King Kong on top of the Empire State

Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2014, 06:34:37 pm »
I'd like to see the current generation of design engineers walk their creations during rush hour, with a hard hat and some hi viz on.

I doubt most of them would manage even a couple of hundred yards.
Then you can tell them they're about 50cm narrower than a bike.

I'd like to force the designer of the Lower Thames Street Cycle path walk his design!

ian

  • fatuously disingenuous
    • The Suburban Survival Guide
Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2014, 08:25:46 pm »
I have previously offered both the London Borough of Bromley and the London Borough of Croydon the opportunity to join me on an epic voyage along their cycling facilities. Neither replied. Both councils are inimical to cycling and very resistant to doing anything that could be vaguely construed as for a moment abrogating the inalienable rights of even a single motorist. LBC is currently busily stripping out the laughable cycling lane along Brighton Road in South End. Not to make something better but to extend the pavement and provide a dozen parking bays. It's OK though, they've put in a bike rack. I know what they'll say, it's for local businesses, because people only go to a restaurant if they can park outside. People I'm sure will love to sit on that splendid pavement and breath the fumes of passing cars and buses. Instant parking just encourages quick stops for the ubiquitous tramp-juice dispensing convenience stores and fried ratchicken outlets that might, if we're lucky, become another site for the vigorously metastasising Tesco/Sainsburies/Morrisons locals.
!nataS pihsroW

Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #15 on: August 18, 2014, 01:07:23 pm »
Call me a cynic, if you like, but I have to ask "Is a new series of Top Gear about to start?"

Do series end?  Isn't there a 'Top Gear' channel, 24/7?  Seems like it..
Sic transit and all that..

Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #16 on: August 18, 2014, 03:16:47 pm »
"James May's cars of the people",  started a week ago. In a triumph (sic) of hope over experience I watched the first two programmes, but it has degenerated into a Top Ego look-alike.

Re: With friends like these...
« Reply #17 on: August 20, 2014, 07:31:25 pm »
LBC is currently busily stripping out the laughable cycling lane along Brighton Road in South End. Not to make something better but to extend the pavement and provide a dozen parking bays. It's OK though, they've put in a bike rack.

Stripping out a laughable cycle lane is to be applauded - if only I could persuade Warrington to remove their farcilities.