Author Topic: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam  (Read 20601 times)

Mrs Pingu

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Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #25 on: 05 September, 2014, 08:04:15 pm »
Speed limits are there for a reason. You speed, all bets are off. It's easy to say if the other person hadn't done x then it wouldn't have happened but the point is that you drive at a speed to which you can react to (and anticipate) other people's fuck ups and random other road conditions , not just assuming all conditions and actions are ideal.

I thought the 'motards' in the Alps this year were particularly bad, hogging the other side of the road round corners when there's only a m/bike and a bike on the road, there's no need for it.
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Ruth

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #26 on: 05 September, 2014, 09:08:36 pm »
It is because they don't generally actually happen that little is done to curb drivers' behaviour.



I wish that were true Jaded.  When I worked on the ICU, a sunny bank holiday Monday automatically meant there would be at least one motorcyclist on Tuesday morning, helicoptered in from the Helmsley road  :(

The adrenaline rush overrides all sense, it seems.

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #27 on: 05 September, 2014, 09:33:28 pm »
Problem is they include everyone else in their 'game'

Ruth

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #28 on: 05 September, 2014, 10:01:00 pm »
Mostly, overcooking it on a slippery bend leaves you in a hedge or a field.  Or you try and straighten yourself away from a collision and end up with a hideous off.  Resulting in little or no physical damage to the other party/vehicle.

I have it on good authority that seeing a motorcyclist's foot flying past (without the rest of the motorcyclist) is somewhat disconcerting, however.

Maybe that's how people are.  We risk assess according to our previous experience, and when you've got away with it a few times before you feel more able to push it further next time.

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #29 on: 05 September, 2014, 10:07:12 pm »
....around other road users who haven't elected to be part of the game

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #30 on: 05 September, 2014, 10:52:50 pm »
It is because they don't generally actually happen that little is done to curb drivers' behaviour.



I wish that were true Jaded.  When I worked on the ICU, a sunny bank holiday Monday automatically meant there would be at least one motorcyclist on Tuesday morning, helicoptered in from the Helmsley road  :(

The adrenaline rush overrides all sense, it seems.

That's confirms my thoughts. I would never cycle down that road on a Sunday.
It's not just individual bikers but groups of 4-8 in number all racing each other to Helmsley and other groups racing in the opposite direction.
 You can almost bank on one motorbike fatality  on North Yorkshire's roads every other weekend in summer.
They don't come out in winter cos salt corrodes everything and it's cold.
Saddest aspect of all is it's usually middle aged men, who should know better , but still think themselves indestructible because they got away with it in their youth.
They forget that when they were young the bike was probably a Yamaha 125 or 250, now they can afford a 500 or 750 it's a completely different animal.

Jaded

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Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #31 on: 05 September, 2014, 10:57:27 pm »
Also their reaction times and sensory perception is degraded by age.
It is simpler than it looks.

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #32 on: 06 September, 2014, 01:13:30 am »
Regarding prosecution of the driver, I think there was a case to answer - namely that the car driver could have been more aware of the potential for a motorcycle to be travelling at excessive speed along what is a long, straight road.  That said, the excessive speed of the bike mitigates the situation from the point of view of the car driver.  Perhaps the sentence - if correct - means that the car driver was found only partly responsible.

The report stated that the car driver failed to see both the MC and the car behind. The simple conclusion, therefore, is that he wasn't paying attention. Presumably the driver of the car behind had time to react. Not so for the motorcyclist...

... or rather a simplistic conclusion.

When you turn right you not only need to check the road ahead, but the road you are turning into, any pedestrians that may be crossing and so on. This all takes time, and despite our perception of a complete panaramic view in which we are aware of every detail we can only look for one thing at a time. It also takes time from the decision to move and the vehicle starting to move - and once you are moving it takes time to initiate a stop - so while it looks from the video as if the driver simply pulls out at the very last minute, the initiation of that manoevre will have been taking place very much earlier.

At the time the driver was making the decision to make the turn the motorcycle probably beyond the last car they overtook. The driver will have seen a car in the distance assesed there was a sufficient gap to complete the manoever - and the motorcyclist will have seemed to come from nowhere. The reason we have speed limits is because of the limitations of human ability to process information.

Also our ability to recall events is also limited. The driver had just experienced a traumatic event so the fact they failed to recall noticing the car is not evidence that they didn't see it. And if you think this is unreasonable try this one. You have watched the video (maybe several times and in untraumatic circumstances). Imagine giving a witness statement - how many oncoming cars did you see pass the car waiting to turn right in that clip?

Another way to see the drivers perspective is to stop the BBC video at 48 seconds. I don't think it would be unreasonable for a driver to decide at that point that they could make a right turn. The truck is over 200m away and will take about 9 seconds to reach the junction. Do you see the white van behind the truck? That is where the motorcycle would have been on the day. Now roll the video forward to 53s - if the white van was a 100mph motorcycle this would be the time of the crash.

Gattopardo

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Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #33 on: 06 September, 2014, 02:07:10 am »
Forgive me, comrades, for the slight hijack but this has brought it all back.

http://www.therevcounter.co.uk/uk-motorbike-forum/58410-nigel-wright-twpd-13.html

Nigel won the Minitwins championship on the only Ducati fitted with a minitwin engine in the UK.  This was possible because he designed and built the TWPD engine himself. 

If he had been riding less recklessly, his mum would have only lost one son, when his brother Michael died a year later of a sudden heart attack.  As it is, Margaret has lost both her children.

And there's a woman who lives on the Staindrop road who will have to live the rest of her life with the memory of Nigel's bike hitting her passenger door, his scream as he flew over her head, and the noise of his head hitting the road.

 :( :( :(

Yeah, he died doing what he loved.  So what?  I don't think it was worth it.

Having ridden with nigel, I would disagree with the verdict of accidental death.  Nigel wasn't on an exceptionally high powered bike and the missing footage might show better reaction times and brake control.

Gattopardo

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Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #34 on: 06 September, 2014, 02:13:20 am »
I feel sorry for this guy because he died but he died because of is own fucking stupidity. Not only that but his utter stupidity could have taken the lives of the occupants of the car.

I hate bikers. Biggest pricks on the roads. Our roads.

So would he have survived at the speed limit?

Or are you fishing?

Ruth

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #35 on: 06 September, 2014, 02:45:06 am »
Forgive me, comrades, for the slight hijack but this has brought it all back.

http://www.therevcounter.co.uk/uk-motorbike-forum/58410-nigel-wright-twpd-13.html

Nigel won the Minitwins championship on the only Ducati fitted with a minitwin engine in the UK.  This was possible because he designed and built the TWPD engine himself. 

If he had been riding less recklessly, his mum would have only lost one son, when his brother Michael died a year later of a sudden heart attack.  As it is, Margaret has lost both her children.

And there's a woman who lives on the Staindrop road who will have to live the rest of her life with the memory of Nigel's bike hitting her passenger door, his scream as he flew over her head, and the noise of his head hitting the road.

 :( :( :(

Yeah, he died doing what he loved.  So what?  I don't think it was worth it.

Having ridden with nigel, I would disagree with the verdict of accidental death.  Nigel wasn't on an exceptionally high powered bike and the missing footage might show better reaction times and brake control.


So what would your verdict have been?
I think he was riding a 750cc Ducati. Is that not pretty high powered for a motorbike?

Gattopardo

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Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #36 on: 06 September, 2014, 03:23:22 am »
Forgive me, comrades, for the slight hijack but this has brought it all back.

http://www.therevcounter.co.uk/uk-motorbike-forum/58410-nigel-wright-twpd-13.html

Nigel won the Minitwins championship on the only Ducati fitted with a minitwin engine in the UK.  This was possible because he designed and built the TWPD engine himself. 

If he had been riding less recklessly, his mum would have only lost one son, when his brother Michael died a year later of a sudden heart attack.  As it is, Margaret has lost both her children.

And there's a woman who lives on the Staindrop road who will have to live the rest of her life with the memory of Nigel's bike hitting her passenger door, his scream as he flew over her head, and the noise of his head hitting the road.

 :( :( :(

Yeah, he died doing what he loved.  So what?  I don't think it was worth it.

Having ridden with nigel, I would disagree with the verdict of accidental death.  Nigel wasn't on an exceptionally high powered bike and the missing footage might show better reaction times and brake control.


So what would your verdict have been?

I'd have noted what difference in time if he had been at the speed limit, still at a second.   Also some judgement in the riders ability to control a motorbike especially under braking.

Edit
The coroner mentioned the time the car driver could see/react due to the possible speed of the bike. But not mention was made if the bike was at the speed limit.  Also Nigel had shown his ability in bike control especially under breaking.

The bike was a ducati 748, they make less power then an inline 4, same sort of power as a gsxr600/cbr600 of the same era, with better brakes and handling.

Ruth

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #37 on: 06 September, 2014, 03:26:37 am »
I don't understand what you are saying.

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #38 on: 06 September, 2014, 05:36:51 am »
I feel sorry for this guy because he died but he died because of is own fucking stupidity. Not only that but his utter stupidity could have taken the lives of the occupants of the car.

I hate bikers. Biggest pricks on the roads. Our roads.

So would he have survived at the speed limit?

Or are you fishing?

Very possibly the driver would have seen him....or not misinterpreted his speed, if he saw him anyway.

We all make judgements of speed and distance. Who would expect somebody to be doing 100mph on a road like that. Its very difficult to judge the speed of a distant object with a 2' profile.

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #39 on: 06 September, 2014, 08:01:38 am »
They are killing machines, from both the way the throttle turning/speed/cornering/overtaking is addictive, and the way they are poorly seen by other road users

There's been a lot of judgemental and generalising twaddle in this thread which, if directed towards cyclists on, say, a sports car forum, would have us up in arms.  Bloody dangerous cyclists, they all jump red lights, ride recklessly on the pavement knocking old ladies over, never have lights at night, etc.

There are bikers and bikers.  Most are responsible, many get significant amounts of extra training over and above the legal requirement, ride considerately, make efforts to be conspicuous and have sufficient skill to keep themselves safe. 

There are many more car drivers who use excessive speed in hazardous areas than bikers, and many, many more people die at the hands of car drivers than bikers. 

The fact that the rider is vulnerable leads most to develop a keen sense of self preservation and most don't succumb to the race-track-on-the-the road culture which leads to the sort of antisocial and dangerous riding that has been extrapolated by some here to encompass the whole motorcycling community.

Yes, there is a subset of bikers who think they're safe dashing round at high speed despite the fact they've never received any training to do it, save for the odd track day learning to get their knee down, but they certainly don't represent the majority.  They are the noisiest and most noticeable, of course, but that doesn't mean they prevail.

Bikes are a quick and efficient way of getting one person around, particularly in congested areas at busy times.  Provided they are used responsibly they have a lot to offer in terms of reducing congestion, pollution and emissions for those that can't cycle. 

And can we please drop the ignorant generalising prejudice.  We can do better than that here.

levitator

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #40 on: 06 September, 2014, 08:36:43 am »
At the time the driver was making the decision to make the turn the motorcycle probably beyond the last car they overtook. The driver will have seen a car in the distance assesed there was a sufficient gap to complete the manoever - and the motorcyclist will have seemed to come from nowhere.
That does not seem to be the case here. If you look carefully at the video (I mean the one on the BBC link), and freeze it at exactly 0:57, you will see that the M/C is in primary position, still some distance away from the junction, with no vehicle in front of it; and the oncoming car has not yet started its turning manoeuvre.  I think more blame attaches to the car driver, but that is not to condone the unfortunate biker's utter disregard for speed limits.

Regulator

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Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #41 on: 06 September, 2014, 08:53:29 am »
I feel sorry for this guy because he died but he died because of is own fucking stupidity. Not only that but his utter stupidity could have taken the lives of the occupants of the car.

I hate bikers. Biggest pricks on the roads. Our roads.

So would he have survived at the speed limit?

Or are you fishing?

Both might have had the opportunity to stop or lessen any impact.

The driver didn't look properly but that doesn't mitigate the fact that the biker was riding like a prat.
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I completely agree with Reg.

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spindrift

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #42 on: 06 September, 2014, 09:50:10 am »
Mostly, overcooking it on a slippery bend leaves you in a hedge or a field.

Yep, you get dead straight Norfolk roads then a sudden sharp curve where bikers just go in a straight line through the field because they realise they're hooning it too fast to turn. My brother lives in north Norfolk and he's pretty sure bikers time themselves doing circuits near his house, noisy bastards.

hellymedic

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Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #43 on: 06 September, 2014, 10:21:28 am »
Having worked in A&E in Norfolk (admittedly >20 years ago), I'd say it was mostly the straight roads and their hidden dips that were/are the killers.

ETA This is where this happened; I didn't take it all in initially.

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #44 on: 06 September, 2014, 10:24:32 am »
I wish that were true Jaded.  When I worked on the ICU, a sunny bank holiday Monday automatically meant there would be at least one motorcyclist on Tuesday morning, helicoptered in from the Helmsley road  :(

The adrenaline rush overrides all sense, it seems.

Ahh the Helmsley TT as its known. Fantastic but dangerous road. A B road with drystone walls reverse camber bends and not the worlds best surface (NY council highways department have a fondness for loses chippings and not repairing potholes) . Its attracted bikers for decades. I used to ride it a lot in the 80s and early 90s being local and even then it was quite famous. Now its promoted in bike mags and on line as one of Englands best biking roads and attracts more an more riders.
Even back in my day some people rode it like idiots. I remember a load of us went one Sunday and someone had a friend with them who wasn’t local and had a reputation for crashing. We warned him to take it easy and follow us but as soon as we left Helmsley for Stokesly he tore of at warp speed. Even my mate who raced quite successfully (on the track) wasn't prepared to try and hunt him down at that speed on that road. Sure enough we came upon him several miles later in a ditch, Fireblade a write off and him with a broken arm and a few busted ribs, cue a trip to the Friaridge to get patched up.
Some people just don’t learn and wont listen to good advice. Sometimes I wonder about that guy and if he gave up riding in the end, calmed down or eventually ran out of luck. I hope it wasn’t that later as he had a lovely wife and small child.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

mattc

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Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #45 on: 06 September, 2014, 11:39:00 am »
Quote
They are killing machines, from both the way the throttle turning/speed/cornering/overtaking is addictive, and the way they are poorly seen by other road users

There's been a lot of judgemental and generalising twaddle in this thread which, if directed towards cyclists on, say, a sports car forum, would have us up in arms.  Bloody dangerous cyclists, they all jump red lights, ride recklessly on the pavement knocking old ladies over, never have lights at night, etc.

There are bikers and bikers.  Most are responsible, many get significant amounts of extra training over and above the legal requirement, ride considerately, make efforts to be conspicuous and have sufficient skill to keep themselves safe. 

There are many more car drivers who use excessive speed in hazardous areas than bikers, and many, many more people die at the hands of car drivers than bikers. 

The fact that the rider is vulnerable leads most to develop a keen sense of self preservation and most don't succumb to the race-track-on-the-the road culture which leads to the sort of antisocial and dangerous riding that has been extrapolated by some here to encompass the whole motorcycling community.

Yes, there is a subset of bikers who think they're safe dashing round at high speed despite the fact they've never received any training to do it, save for the odd track day learning to get their knee down, but they certainly don't represent the majority.  They are the noisiest and most noticeable, of course, but that doesn't mean they prevail.

Bikes are a quick and efficient way of getting one person around, particularly in congested areas at busy times.  Provided they are used responsibly they have a lot to offer in terms of reducing congestion, pollution and emissions for those that can't cycle. 

And can we please drop the ignorant generalising prejudice.  We can do better than that here.

Couldn't agree more.
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Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #46 on: 06 September, 2014, 11:45:11 am »
Couldn't agree more.

+1, to Tewdric, and to Pete Owens. Much wisdom on this thread. Very "educational", in spite of the horrible subject. Thanks all.

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #47 on: 06 September, 2014, 11:59:19 am »
Wot Tewdric said.

Maybe an issue here is how motorcycling is promoted. It is not promoted as sensible everyday transport for one person to nip through traffic; it is not promoted as environmentally advantageous, nor is it promoted as a great way to experience the countryside.
It is sold as an adrenaline rush for wanna be racers, it's sold on the basis of racing look-alike bikes and clothing, and often the only training bikers get are on race days.
The makers of scooters come close to defeating this image, and selling their wares as practical transport - then go and listen to the disparaging comments that the biking community make about 'hair dryers'.

As cyclists, yes we are used to generics actions and being stereotyped, but a very large percentage of the biking community need to seriously think about how they are abusing the roads, and threatening their lives and the welfare of their families. Equally the motorcycle industry needs to catch up with the car industry in the way responsible motoring is (more often) portrayed.
The public highway is not a race track, and we are not invincible.
Too many angry people - breathe & relax.

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #48 on: 06 September, 2014, 12:04:41 pm »
An  interesting corollary to this is what its like trying to ride on a proper racetrack if you have only ridden on the road before (and have any kind of sense of self preservation). I did a race day at Cadwell Park once where we used the race prepared bikes of the Yamaha racing school. Even knowing that its a race track and there will be nothing coming the other way it very difficult to keep the throttle full open on the straight as there is a blind brow and your instincts scream back off. The same for the corners, using the whole of the corner goes completely against what your subconscious wants you to do as you want to leave half of the tack for the non existent oncoming  traffic.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Re: Motorcyclist filmed own death with head cam
« Reply #49 on: 06 September, 2014, 12:16:19 pm »
An  interesting corollary to this is what its like trying to ride on a proper racetrack if you have only ridden on the road before
I raced for a few meetings in the late 80s.  CRMC classic racing.  I thought my road riding was more than adequate, but was quickly shown how utterly useless I really was once on the track.

The longest I spent on the bike was about an hour when I took it along to a race school that hires local circuits.  My local was Goodwood.  An hour at even my pathetic racing speed was exhausting - trying to get the lines right through blind bends etc.

As Tewdric says - good and bad all around.