Author Topic: Armstrong to join Astana  (Read 5863 times)

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #25 on: September 26, 2008, 08:37:03 am »
<snip>
I'd be very pleased if someone could turn up a quote were he says unequivocally, "I never doped."

And then you'd be happy?
<snip>



Yup. I would. He says, "I've never doped." rather than some truthful but otherwise 'ambiguous' line about, "I've never tested +ve" and as the tests so far show no evidence of doping then that would satisfy me completely. 

Try this one then.

Quote:

Lance Armstrong has responded on his LanceArmstrong.com website, branding L'Équipe's reporting as being "nothing short of tabloid journalism." Armstrong says: "I will simply restate what I have said many times: I have never taken performance enhancing drugs."

/Quote

About two thirds down.   It refers to his website so that might be worth investigating.

TheLurker

  • Goes well with magnolia.
Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #26 on: September 26, 2008, 10:38:20 am »
Ta. That'll do nicely.
Τα πιο όμορφα ταξίδια γίνονται με τις δικές μας δυνάμεις - Φίλοι του Ποδήλατου

LEE

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #27 on: September 26, 2008, 02:52:15 pm »
(considering that everyone on his back wheel was doping as well).

Really?! I think you ought to consider that some countries do have a strict anti-doping policy and have had a system in place for some 10 years...

I'm using the same logic used by many 'Lance Detractors'.

Logic - He has never tested positive but he is a good cyclist,  therefore he is probably guilty.

I'm merely taking that to its logical conclusion in that every other talented & innocent rider was probably guilty.

I feel very strongly that accusing sporting winners of being 'probably guilty' could signal the end of all sport.  I'd prefer to accuse Lance and any other innocent athletes of being 'probably innocent', in fact I'd go the whole way and say they ARE innocent. I can't watch sport otherwise.

One day a French rider may win the Tour again.  If he wins it by a big margin the whole world will just assume he is 'probably guilty' using this mentality, I'm sure you'd prefer people to assume he was innocent.

gonzo

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2008, 09:23:37 am »
Lee: What does it take to move someone to being guilty then? How about if unofficial tests find them positive? No? Ok, how about if they're found in possession of drugs that hadn't been banned at the time (or some other similar loophole).

It's not just black or white unfortunately.

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2008, 10:04:25 am »
I think that it is very unfortunate that there are high profile cases of athletes in many different sports never actually testing but subsequently admitting their guilt, and many star performers having the finger pointed at them.  I was listening to a piece about Flo Jo only recently on this very topic.

I see one big difference for Lance:   If he ever used performance enhancing drugs when the tests were not available to find them then he lied.  However, given the current levels of science, the scrutiny that would be on him in particular, if he comes back the huge expectation for him to be clean and remain clean will be unbearable if he isn't.   

Sometimes you just have an exceptional, gifted and totally dedicated athlete.  Sometimes you have a cheat.   At the moment I see nothing to assume that Lance is anything but the former.

Oh, and I should admit to not really being interested in cycle racing at all, rather I am interested in rules and regulations.  I like these things to apply evenly to all competitors in all sports.   I guess I'm a bit sad in this respect.  It can get my back up big time when I see inconsistency.   As Frenchie will know from another thread or two.  Sorry if I was a bit harsh Frenchie.

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2008, 11:05:59 am »
Sometimes you just have an exceptional, gifted and totally dedicated athlete.  Sometimes you have a cheat.   

What makes you think you can't have both?

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2008, 11:14:03 am »
Sometimes you just have an exceptional, gifted and totally dedicated athlete.  Sometimes you have a cheat.   

What makes you think you can't have both?

Oh, I'm sure you can, and do. 

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2008, 02:06:26 pm »
  Sorry if I was a bit harsh Frenchie.


No problem at all.

My point here is not to say one is guilty, but to say that there are athletes for whom it is mightily difficult to dope, others for whom it is less. I get a bit cranky when French athletes get a lot of stick for not winning (anymore) because I do believe all (most) of them have to be clean. One day they will be back; I hope.

There is not doubt in my mind though that Armstrong is one unbearable character; this may explain why he wins but winning does not justify such an attitude. I hope for him he has always been clean.
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #33 on: September 27, 2008, 02:18:17 pm »
(considering that everyone on his back wheel was doping as well).

Really?! I think you ought to consider that some countries do have a strict anti-doping policy and have had a system in place for some 10 years...

I'm using the same logic used by many 'Lance Detractors'.

[...]

I'm merely taking that to its logical conclusion in that every other talented & innocent rider was probably guilty.


There's a breakdown in your logic here if you allow me. You could be doped and finish behind of course. But if the winner was up to his eyeballs and you weren't chances are that you wouldn't be able to hang on to his wheels, no?
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

RJ

  • Droll rat
Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #34 on: September 27, 2008, 06:51:37 pm »
"Ungracious" is the word that springs to mind ...

I can admire his achievement, but I can't say I'm a Lance fan.  That's not likely to change - and I'm sure (rightly) it won't bother Lance one iota.

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #35 on: September 27, 2008, 08:22:29 pm »
I understand Jalabert very well. He is a super human being, very modest. Hinault was a bit more arrogant; but miles behind Lance. Anquetil as well, but he had humour at least.  :thumbsup:
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

richie_b

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #36 on: September 27, 2008, 08:29:34 pm »
There is not doubt in my mind though that Armstrong is one unbearable character ...

I am not so sure. I have never met him but on reading It's Not About The Bike I came to the conclusion (ie. my opinion) that he was obnoxious as a teeneager because of his family background and quite possibly being ridiculed at school as a result of that. I think that's where he discovered that he could channel his anger into competitive sport and show them a thing or two!

Since his cancer I am of the opinion that he has both matured a bit a mellowed a bit. That is not to suggest that he can't be riled and indeed, there have been some TdF stages where you could see that his anger fuelled by adrenalin catapaulted him into the lead. For instance, I think he was annoyed at himself for falling off when he caught the musette bag (in 2003?) and sheer contained anger at himself drove him honking into a staggering lead.

That is the image I have of him. Human, with some faults (and lacking other faults which I may well posess).
*remembers the episode with Simeoni*
*shudders*
You may want to read other sources than LA to find out about LA.
I would like to share your opinion, but unfortunately can only agree with Frenchie.
& add that he's been a fierce defender of omerta too

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2008, 09:59:43 am »
Stade 2 France 2

Operation seduction...
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2008, 11:31:47 am »
How do we know Pantani wasn't an arrogant dickhead?  Or Ullrich, or Contador etc etc...

I'm led to believe Ulrich is a bit of a "big daft laddie", hugely talented, genuinely nice bloke.

Observation would suggest that maybe a bit lacking in racing smarts tho'   :P

"What a long, strange trip it's been", Truckin'

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2008, 01:55:18 pm »
How do we know Pantani wasn't an arrogant dickhead?  Or Ullrich, or Contador etc etc...

I'm led to believe Ulrich is a bit of a.....

Well, that is what I mean... you are led to believe, .. rather than actually hearing it from his mouth.

I heard it from folks that used to ride with him in T-Mobile and provided support to the team - mechanic, trainer, PR & marketing guys.  Rang true to me - you, obviously, are free to believe what you like  :)
"What a long, strange trip it's been", Truckin'

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2008, 05:31:35 pm »
You are totally missing the point  ::-)

LEE

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2008, 04:53:01 pm »
(considering that everyone on his back wheel was doping as well).

Really?! I think you ought to consider that some countries do have a strict anti-doping policy and have had a system in place for some 10 years...

I'm using the same logic used by many 'Lance Detractors'.

[...]

I'm merely taking that to its logical conclusion in that every other talented & innocent rider was probably guilty.


There's a breakdown in your logic here if you allow me. You could be doped and finish behind of course. But if the winner was up to his eyeballs and you weren't chances are that you wouldn't be able to hang on to his wheels, no?

It wasn't my logic that I was using.

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2008, 08:23:33 pm »
I can't follow!  ???
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2008, 09:55:16 pm »
"every other talented & innocent rider was probably guilty."

Eh? Can I choose any two out of three, please?

Follow THAT, Frenchie!


dave j
Let right or wrong alone decide
God was never on your side.

LEE

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2008, 12:27:34 pm »
I can't follow!  ???

I borrowed the logic of "Lance has never been found guilty of doping but we'll assume he's probably guilty anyway".

Using that logic it's fair to say that all the great cyclists were probably guilty.  The French riders that you say were clean, were not in fact clean, they were probably doping and probably found a way around the tests.

Pretty soon anyone who wins at any sport will probably be guilty of doping.  I don't want to start along those lines.

If he's found guilty of doping by the ruling bodies that be then let me know, he'll go right down in my estimation. 

Until then he's a great cyclist and I honestly couldn't care less what his personality is like.  He's just some sporting legend who I'm never going to meet socially, why would I care if he's kind to kittens or not? 

Nigel Mansell is a right old Cnut apparently but I can still admire him for winning an F1 title.  I think you may need to be a right old Cnut to head an F1 team or a TdF team, there are so many people gunning for your position that it may be necessary to be totally self-centered.

Incidentally I've never seen an interview with Lance where he came across as anything other than professional and business-like so I can't even say he seems like a Cnut.

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #45 on: October 01, 2008, 01:09:27 pm »
The probably is very low when one is monitored very closely... On and off season. A lot more than other federations and bodies did or do for example. A lot more.

Nobody here has said Mr Armstrong was doping; merely noting that he is a difficult character, not a great winner and has been at times ambiguous on his stance and on his past. There lies the issue.

I would not call him a sporting legend though! I do not believe that you have to be what you describe by use of a c-word to be a champion. And certainly being a champion doesn't justify turning into one either! On this I strongly disagree, as I do on some of his media relation. But I will leave it at that.

PS You wrote:
Quote
If he doped then still a breath-taking achievement (considering that everyone on his back wheel was doping as well).
which is not exactly a "probably" and which would not have me in admiration.
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #46 on: October 01, 2008, 01:21:59 pm »
A legend makes me "dream"... is admired ... wants to be emulated. Armstrong is and leaves me cold I'm afraid! 7 TdF is good; but I want more, and not only some classics and other tours, but also some class. Sorry.  :-[
Frenchie - Train à Grande Vitesse

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #47 on: October 01, 2008, 06:16:45 pm »
I do not believe that you have to be what you describe by use of a c-word to be a champion.

Interesting quote from the GB track team coach a couple of weeks ago saying that Chris Hoy is a c**t when at work, because he has to be. 

Jakob

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #48 on: October 01, 2008, 09:53:27 pm »
There's a breakdown in your logic here if you allow me. You could be doped and finish behind of course. But if the winner was up to his eyeballs and you weren't chances are that you wouldn't be able to hang on to his wheels, no?

Good example was Riis. He was doping before winning the TdF. Doping didn't suddenly enable him to win..he still had to get all his ducks in a row.

As it stands, most cyclists,probably until this years TdF, are guilty simply by association. That includes Lance.
 In the near future, gene-therapy will become a reality and we start all over again..

Re: Armstrong to join Astana
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2008, 10:10:42 pm »
Frenchie seems to have got it about right.

And if rumour and giossip is to be believed Riis started doping and won the TdF - the events were quite closely connected in time.
"What a long, strange trip it's been", Truckin'