Author Topic: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)  (Read 13302 times)

LEE

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Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« on: November 23, 2014, 09:51:17 am »
(Edit.  changed title to trigger a "Best ever?" discussion)

This is a player that desperately needs to win a World Cup so I can say that I was around when the best player ever was playing*

*Normally I'd say that shouldn't be the case (as with George Best) but Argentina are more than capable.

This is a striker who, despite every defender he plays against knowing they must stop Messi, manages to repeatedly deliver the goods.

8 Hat-tricks in a single season!  Some strikers at top clubs would be happy with 8 goals.

Messi's records
La Liga top scorer: 253
Barcelona's top goalscorer: 368
Champions League top scorer: 71 (joint with Raul)
Most consecutive La Liga matches scored in: 21
Most goals in a season: 68
Most goals in a La Liga season: 50
Most Ballon d'Ors: 4
Most goals in Club World Cup: 4 (held jointly with Denilson)
Most European Cup top scorer awards: 4 (with Gerd Muller)
Most goals in a single European Cup game: 5 (joint with Luiz Adriano)
Most La Liga hat-tricks in a season: 8
Most goals in El Clasico: 21
Most goals in a calendar year: 91
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #1 on: November 23, 2014, 10:30:07 am »
Seems to be a genuinely nice bloke as well.
I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #2 on: November 23, 2014, 02:58:03 pm »
My son was just asking me "Who's the best footballer of all time?" I'll point him at this thread!  ;)
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

LEE

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2014, 05:17:39 pm »
My son was just asking me "Who's the best footballer of all time?" I'll point him at this thread!  ;)

It's going to be a short list of nominations I expect.

Of course you can only be the best in your own era but I personally have never seen anyone who looks to be in control of a football as totally as Messi is.
He seems to pass a ball into the net like a top golfer taps in a 6" putt.

George Best had it & Maradonna had it but they were both flawed to the detriment of their game.  I suspect Maradonna was taking performance enhancing drugs way before he was detected.
George Best once said "In 1969 I gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life." (You gotta love Georgie).

Messi has it all, left foot, right foot, Headers, tap-ins, long range shots, free kicks and incredible solo "dribbles". 

He's also only 27 which means he will most likely set the bar even higher. He doesn't rely on pure pace like C. Ronaldo which means he can become a prolific midfielder as he gets beyond 30.

I just checked and he's scored 26 Hat-tricks for Barcelona !!!! That's ridiculous.
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #4 on: November 23, 2014, 06:21:58 pm »
All your plaudits are well-merited, Lee (though, being a Tees-sider,  I have a soft spot for Brian Clough, whose goals per game record was astonishing).  But my favourite of Messi's attributes is his determination to come out of every tackle with the ball, rather than a free kick.  Almost all players play for the free kick these days - not Messi.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Lionel Messi
« Reply #5 on: November 23, 2014, 10:30:41 pm »
My son was just asking me "Who's the best footballer of all time?" I'll point him at this thread!  ;)

It's going to be a short list of nominations I expect.

Of course you can only be the best in your own era but I personally have never seen anyone who looks to be in control of a football as totally as Messi is.
He seems to pass a ball into the net like a top golfer taps in a 6" putt.

... Maradonna had it but they were both flawed to the detriment of their game.  I suspect Maradonna was taking performance enhancing drugs way before he was detected.
...
Maradonna was own choice, but I don't know why. When I said "A lot of people would say Pele" he responded "Who?" Time moves on... (I suspect he knows Maradonna as a manager and has seen old film, whereas Pele is just an old geezer who advertises Mastercard or something)
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LEE

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Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #6 on: November 24, 2014, 12:49:01 am »
Pele, like George Best, demonstrated skills that wouldn't look out of place in the modern game. Skills that, in that era, were light years away from the typical skill levels.
They both had speed of mind, which is better than speed of feet (although Pele had both).

Had there been more TV coverage in the 50s and 60s then there would be more examples of their genius.

Messi is not only blessed with footballing genius but 360 degree TV coverage of his every move, so it's easy to stack up an entire career of highlights where we may be missing 90% of George Best's.

I can imagine anyone was actually better then Messi though, maybe just as good, but not better.

Possibly that's the actual crux of the matter.  Some players actually achieve perfection, they get as good as you can get, regardless of the era.

There isn't a "Greatest", just a list of "Perfects".

Pele
Best
Messi
Cristiano Ronaldo
Neil Ruddock

...etc
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #7 on: November 24, 2014, 01:05:24 am »
No, no, no!  Ronaldo (who is otherwise brilliant) plays for the free-kick; Neil Ruddock concedes the free-kick (I suspect you are just stirring there!).

clarion

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Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #8 on: November 24, 2014, 09:07:03 am »
Norman Hunter was very effective in his role.
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Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #9 on: November 24, 2014, 10:35:29 am »
Norman Hunter was very effective in his role.

Sea also "Smith, Tommy" and "Harris, Ron 'Chopper'"
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #10 on: November 24, 2014, 11:08:53 am »
Let's brainstorm this one.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #11 on: November 26, 2014, 12:31:33 pm »
Platini wasn't bad either, was he?  Interesting that so many of the contenders are short-arses have a low centre of gravity - Platini, Messi, Maradonna, Monty Brown (I only expect one other forum member to get the reference, and acknowledge that it only really applies if the 'best ever' epithet applies to Gainsborough Trinity players). Their other attributes must make up for the disadvantages they have when it comes to heading.  Also interesting, I think, that these sort of discussions tend to coalesce around goal-scorers, and, inevitably, people playing in the last 40 or 50 years or so.

I do particularly like watching Messi play.

LEE

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Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #12 on: November 26, 2014, 02:11:59 pm »
I think, that these sort of discussions tend to coalesce around goal-scorers, and, inevitably, people playing in the last 40 or 50 years or so.


Agreed, but it's very hard to judge a defender when his performance is based on things not happening. Much of their work goes unseen and is "positional".

A Goal Keeper stands a better chance because it's clearer when they prevent a goal by their actions.

However, it's always going to be a forward or goal-scoring midfielder I think. 
The game is ultimately about scoring goals and scoring a goal in the modern game is extremely hard to do, hence the hefty price tag on players who can do it regularly.

I think what unites people around Lionel Messi is that he seems to play for the joy of the game. As mentioned above, he seems to ride challenges (some of them designed to scythe him down) rather than fall over, even when he would be perfectly entitled to do so.

By the way, he just scored another Hat trick to become the highest goal-scorer in Champions League history...to obtain one of the few remaining records he doesn't already own.

Here's 5 minutes of magic.  Really, if you don't like this then you will never like football. Most players would be dining out for life on just one of these.

Check out the final one, it out Maradonnas Maradonna.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=603JM1adqRA
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #13 on: November 26, 2014, 02:28:07 pm »
Absolutely marvellous, Lee, even at the speeded up depictions.  My favourite is the one (about the fourth goal, I think) where the keeper saves his initial attempt and Messi passes the rebound through his legs; it's just so funny, almost like a scene from Buster Keaton.  I also love the way he smiles when he scores; almost everyone else roars like macho-moron.  But I think I know his secret: he is a shape-shifter.  There are one or two there where he just seems to disappear for a split second.  I've never seen anyone feint like that, except possibly George Best and Jim Baxter.  His balance is almost incredible.  He makes football into an enjoyable comedy and it's great to see so many "hard men" dumped on their backsides (mteaphorically, at least) without him even touching hem.

Thanks!

Just thought, Messi, Maradonna, Aguerro, Argentina.....

LEE

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Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #14 on: November 26, 2014, 03:08:28 pm »
Apparently they are still trying to untie the knots in some of those defenders' legs.

Note.  I don't think any of that is speeded up (Speeding up footage usually really jars with me, when you see it in car chases and such.  The physics are noticeable all wrong.)
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #15 on: November 26, 2014, 03:25:32 pm »
Having not been to a top flight league game for over 30 years I have only seen the current players on TV and often you don’t get the overall impact of a performance that way. Perhaps this is why defenders rarely figure as outstanding players yet watching live they often they can be seen as a crucial team player. Messi has to rate as one of the best players in the current era purely because of his goal scoring record.

As a lad the defender I drooled over was Billy Wright at the Wolves, great leader, great defensive organiser and a great player. I often wonder if there have ever been a better defender before or since him.

Are we allowed to post some other football memories here?  ;)
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #16 on: November 26, 2014, 06:34:19 pm »
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #17 on: November 26, 2014, 07:17:29 pm »

Messi has to rate as one of the best players in the current era purely because of his goal scoring record.

Yes, that would suffice but that's not really why I rate him so highly.  It's the manner of how he scores goals that clinches it for me.

I'd still rate him as the best I've ever seen if his tally were half of what it is.

The similarities between Messi and George Best are incredible really, there are some identical goals, using identical changes of direction and tying-up of defenders' legs.

Check out the goal at 1:00min, it's quite possibly the best goal I've ever seen.."If you can keep your head....."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nplemK3Y4ns
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.

Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #18 on: November 26, 2014, 07:37:40 pm »
Check out the goal at 1:00min, it's quite possibly the best goal I've ever seen..

I think that's the second best goal I've ever seen. The best being the one that starts at 3:34 and ends at 3:44.  :)

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mattc

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Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #19 on: November 26, 2014, 07:41:10 pm »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=603JM1adqRA
Thanks, that's keeping us entertained.  :)
Awesome.

What I hadn't noticed before this montage: he hardly does any single amazing thing with the ball - he just stitches together lots of simple touches, always getting his body in the right place, then slots an inch-perfect finish.
[There is one long-range screamer,  but even Hoddle scored a few of those :P ]

Like watching Rocket Ronnie score a lightning 80; the trick is never _needing_ to play a difficult shot, never getting out of position. And without having to think about it.

Not even one double drag-back. Pffft.
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Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #20 on: November 26, 2014, 07:53:42 pm »
Agree about the simplicity of his touches, which is made possible I imagine by his incredible balance and skill at skipping over defenders' feet.  I don't think I've ever seen him do a "stepover".   Everyone else does..... could be a moral there.

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Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #21 on: November 27, 2014, 07:57:13 am »

Check out the goal at 1:00min, it's quite possibly the best goal I've ever seen.."If you can keep your head....."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nplemK3Y4ns
Even he wasn't sure it was going in!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BjCcBjEx9E
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #22 on: November 27, 2014, 10:12:24 am »
I love the one at about 58s where he leaves the defender lying on the field, shoots, and then scores when it rebounds off the goalie's knees!
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #23 on: November 27, 2014, 10:15:39 am »
And just to put Pelé into context from the younger perspective, I was asked a couple of days ago "Is Zinedine Zidane still alive?"  :D
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

LEE

  • "Shut Up Jens" - Legs.
Re: Lionel Messi (edit. Best Ever?)
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2014, 12:23:40 pm »

What I hadn't noticed before this montage: he hardly does any single amazing thing with the ball - he just stitches together lots of simple touches, always getting his body in the right place, then slots an inch-perfect finish.
[There is one long-range screamer,  but even Hoddle scored a few of those :P ]


Paul Gascoigne the same.  Some people seem to have the ball stuck to their feet.

Any football lovers out there need to watch this and see, possibly, the 2 best footballers duke it out with goals that make the hairs on your neck stand up.

2 totally different styles but equally effective and both showing what the game is really about.  May contain some disturbing "Darts-Like" commentary.

Several times I guarantee you will think "surely not from there".

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1OHxIv_Bac
Some people say I'm self-obsessed but that's enough about them.