Author Topic: Novice running  (Read 14087 times)

Re: Novice running
« Reply #125 on: April 03, 2020, 07:49:13 am »
nicknack,

Forget the 220 minus age guff.  I am 57 yet regularly push my max HR beyond 170 with no apparent issues.  We are each different.  In fact, in two hours time I will have done so yet again.
...

Yup.  176 recorded.

Re: Novice running
« Reply #126 on: April 03, 2020, 08:57:11 am »
Forget the 220 minus age guff.

No, don't dismiss it as guff without understanding the point of it.

The point is that in the absence of any other useful indicator (i.e. real world empirical data from a run or something) then 220-age is the best remaining option for estimating HRmax.

No other value than 220 in a formula of the form x-age gives a better fit in a population wide study.

Of course individuals vary, it should be obvious that there isn't a formula out there that can accurately predict individual values for everyone, but if you've got absolutely nothing else to go on then it is the best thing out there.

There are better fit formulae but they are more complicated. HRmax = 208 - (0.7 x age) has a better fit population wide than 220-age.

However, if you've got something that can record HR whilst running, and have no medical reason not to do vigorous exercise (e.g. you've been warned off it by a doctor, or you have a concern over a possible medical condition), then the best way to find your max running HR is:

* find a flat safe circuit (the outside lanes of a proper running track would be perfect) where there are other people about (don't do it completely alone somewhere)
* start by jogging gently for 5 minutes to warm up
* once warmed up increase your speed by 0.5kph every minute or so (if you can't show current pace on your watch then just bump up the speed a bit each time)
* keep doing this until you really can't push it any more, then stop and recover (don't forget to cool down and stretch properly once recovered)

Whatever max your HR monitor hit during the run is now your current best estimate of HRmax. It's not likely to be the exact value but it'll be close enough.

If you then see a higher value in a future run, and it's not just some glitch from adjusting the strap, some weird heart flutter, or passing a bus (this sometimes sets one of my HRMs to read 240bpm) then use that new value, it's that simple.

(The highest HR value I've got when running [sprinting to the finish of a half marathon] is still 13bpm lower than the highest I've ever seen my HR. I get the much higher values during 5-a-side football games and I just can't replicate these whilst running in a straight line[1]. Also I can never seem to get my HR up to either of these levels whilst cycling, even doing hill repeats. I don't want to use the 13bpm higher HRmax value for my running as it would make all of the corresponding 'zones' horrific to train in. Anyway, I digress.)

If you do have any medical condition that could prevent you from doing this, and you need to have an idea of your HRmax in order to know where to limit yourself, then that's a different story. You should probably discuss this with a doctor. From reading the previous posts I would say this would apply to nicknack's situation - speak to your GP first (telephone appointment first given the current situation).

1. I've discussed this with a cardiologist (after having an ECG and an ultrasound - thanks to the Cardiac Risk in the Young charity - back when I was young) and the cardiologist was unconcerned.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Novice running
« Reply #127 on: April 03, 2020, 09:36:13 am »
If you want to monitor heart rate while running, a chest strap and watch is the best solution, but the recent Garmin watches do pretty well with their wrist sensors and monitor HR through the day too. I have a 935 which I usually, but not always, use with a chest strap for running and wear all day as a tracker. It tells the time too:) My old 235 was also a nice watch and now graces the wrist of one of our compatriots on here.

I can't use my wrist sensor alone on my Garmin 935 for running as it isn't reliable enough.

Two main problems with it:

a) It's sometimes slow to pick up on increase in HR at the start of a run, often settling on a value that is 20-30bpm lower than reality. This lasts for a good 5 minutes or so and then it suddenly jumps up to the real value. I get this on about one in every 10 runs. I also get this with intervals, I can start a specific interval and there can be anything up to a 30 second lag for it to pick up the increasing HR. It seems to pick up on the subsequent drop in HR with no problems.

Here's an example of this:-



Two runs on roughly similar routes (for the first 3km at least). The bottom one was using a HR strap, the top one using wrist alone (as I'd forgot to bring the strap in that day). Relatively flat HR trace for ~3-4 minutes after the warm up (the "missing" bit includes the "climb" of crossing Blackfriars Bridge which shows as a definite hump in the lower trace) and then suddenly jumps into life and works fine for the rest of the run.

b) It can't deal with rapidly changing HR and under-reads considerably and consistently. I get this when I use it for 5-a-side football to the point that I don't think it's been within 10bpm of reality at any point during an hour.

If you're on a long steady run and it picks up the correct HR early on then you should be fine, but since it doesn't do it reliably then I always supplement it with an HRM strap if I can.

I've heard the newer sensors on the later models (e.g. the 945 that also does pulse-ox) are better, but I've no experience/evidence of this myself. Upgrading to a 945 from my 935 would be nice but even getting a good price for my 935 second hand would end up costing me close to £200 and can't justify that right now. Will probably aim to stick £50 a month away and upgrade to whatever supersedes the 945 (if there is anything).

I've got plenty of data of example runs with both a HR strap and attempting to use the optical wrist sensor to show it is unreliable for me. However, I still do my run so I'm not too fussed, it just tends to throw Garmin's own performance metrics/calculations up the spout as it suddenly thinks I can run 5 minute kilometers at 80bpm below my HRmax.

This may be my specific unit that has a problem, it may also be specific to me (although I'm white and have no tattoos). I haven't done enough runs with my new Polar OH1+ (which I wear on the upper arm) to see if it's specific to optical HR sensors and me, and I never got to try the OH1+ for 5-a-side before lockdown. Otherwise the OH1+ seems to be working fine so far (it was mostly purchased for swimming).

So for running I have to wear a HR strap if I want reliable and accurate HR data.

For 24h a day HR monitoring the wrist sensor seems fine, but then I've no idea how accurate it really is as I've nothing to compare it to. And I'm not going to try and find out by wearing an HR strap all the time, or the OH1+.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Novice running
« Reply #128 on: April 03, 2020, 09:55:11 am »
One last observation:  Only a very small percentage of those who try actually complete C25K.  Only a very small percentage of those who complete C25K manage to run 5k in the 30 minutes that week 9 allows in it's schedule.  I ran 5k's for my week 9 sessions timed at 33 minutes and a handful of seconds.  If I keep going I will hit and break 30 minutes but the achievement for me was 30 minutes continuous running where only weeks ago 1 minute was bloody hard.
I started running when I was 53. I was working away from home three days a week and going out of my mind with the lack of exercise. I asked for help here (of course) and the C25K programme was suggested (see https://yacf.co.uk/forum/index.php?topic=63370.msg1318328#msg1318328 for the details). I am now rather addicted to running, albeit in a fairly limited way, no races (yet), parkrun being the closest I come to that. However, it did take me over a year to go from 'being able to run for 30 minutes' to 'running 5k in under 30 minutes'. I got as close as 30'09" once! The difference came when I did our local parkrun where the fear of embarrassment gave me an extra kick from somewhere. So, definitely do not worry about not being able to get to the 5k even at the end of the course. It's being able to do the half hour which matters.
And enjoy it!
"No matter how slow you go, you're still lapping everybody on the couch."

Re: Novice running
« Reply #129 on: April 03, 2020, 11:42:28 am »
I was advised by a cardiologist last year (I have a bit of heart disease - not enough for stent but enough for beta-blockers) that I ought to do something about being a fat, lazy bastard. Lose weight, more exercise then.

Did the cardiologist give any advice as to what form of exercise you should take?

It’s great that you are tackling this. Deciding to do something and actually starting is a good start, well done.

I’m 54 and I’ve been using the C25K as a way of gently reintroducing myself to running. It’s been great but slow, often due to caution on my part, as along the way there have been a few musculoskeletal issues. On that point it’s important to bear in mind the situation in the NHS with COVID-19. Minor niggles are one thing, but there is also the risk of doing yourself some damage that needs NHS input. You will find it difficult to see a GP, to say the least. I think it’s very unlikely that you’ll get a timely referral to physio or indeed anything else. If you were to do something that needed surgical input, let’s say you do your Achilles’ tendon, or break a bone, I don’t fancy your chances of getting optimal treatment just now. Be cautious. I’m not overweight and reasonably active, do Pilates regularly etc., cycle to work, but even so the gradual introduction of unfamiliar high impact exercise caused some injuries that required rest and a pause in the running.

In my view the C25K may not even be gradual enough, at the beginning, for those unused to high impact exercise. Have a look at some drills that you can do to get the tendons and ligaments up to speed, and think about core strength too. Don’t try to run injuries off.

As for the cardiology end of things, I cannot advise other than suggesting you have pay even more attention than usual to symptoms. Take account of the fact that normal heart rate ranges and age related targets will not be applicable. Exercise, but not to extremes. Get advice from your cardiologist when appropriate, if possible.

One thing to consider might be - assuming the “fat bastard” was not entirely in jest - that 1) losing some weight will reduce the likelihood of injury and 2) reducing the intake will be more effective than increasing your output at this stage.

nicknack

  • Hornblower
Re: Novice running
« Reply #130 on: April 03, 2020, 03:31:38 pm »
Cheers all!

I did the first one this morning. There was a bit of difficulty with the app which kept stopping and restarting so I had to do it by guesswork. If it misbehaves the next time I'll use a stopwatch and counter. Max heart rate 139 so not at all drastic. I thought there'd be more difference between the running bits and the walking bits but the heart rate just gradually built up to 130+ and stayed there for about the last 8 minutes.

It wasn't so bad. That surprised me, after 46 years of not running at all. Tiring but encouraging. Next one will be Monday.

The cardiologist didn't really give any indication about what level of exercise would be sensible, only more than the walking I was already doing. I guess he thinks the arterial constriction isn't too bad. I've got a trinitrate spray but I've never had to use it.
There's no vibrations, but wait.

Re: Novice running
« Reply #131 on: April 03, 2020, 03:55:58 pm »
Well done!


Re: Novice running
« Reply #132 on: April 03, 2020, 05:28:33 pm »
Nice one NickNack!  I should have done a C25K run over the last few days but I'm so busy at work plus had a hangover this morning  ::-)I MUST TRY HARDER so will make an extra special effort this weekend.

Re: Novice running
« Reply #133 on: April 03, 2020, 11:37:19 pm »
Nice one nicknack. I finished week 9 on 14 March. Nice feeling. I’m now comfortably running 30 mins every 2 or 3 days, and pushing it to 35, but 3x30 mins pw is actually plenty. It’s good quality exercise.

I suspect gait analysis is snake oil. I paid £100 for wonky trainers after analysis and they didn’t do any good and may have caused some knee problems I had early on. My £40, non-wonky trainers from decathlon are much better.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

nicknack

  • Hornblower
Re: Novice running
« Reply #134 on: April 06, 2020, 12:16:22 pm »
Second one done now. It seemed much the same as the first one. Max heart 141, app crashed after a couple of minutes (now uninstalled). I'll stick to simple timer from now on. Legs feel like jelly.
There's no vibrations, but wait.

Re: Novice running
« Reply #135 on: April 06, 2020, 01:51:30 pm »
Legs feel like jelly.
Sounds about right  :thumbsup:

Don't forget to stretch a bit after (maybe before too, but definitely after). Boring, but important.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Novice running
« Reply #136 on: April 13, 2020, 06:27:42 pm »
I discovered (through my teenage son needing new shoes) that some manufacturers were having big online sales, presumably to offload stock that's now not going to shops. So I got myself a pair of Reeboks for just £18. They arrived two weeks ago today and I did my first run the following day, around a little circuit of flat, quiet streets which I later measured on Bikehike as just over 0.9km. Well, I could keep going on the flat but the hill slope incline barely perceptible gradient had me grinding to a halt like a noob cyclist stuck in top gear on a heavily laden tourer. And the phlegm I coughed up! (No, I didn't literally cough it up in the street, cos obviously). By Friday I felt able to try 3 consecutive laps but after that the muscles (tendons?) on the outsides of my thighs were bruised/sore/overstretched or something, so I took the weekend off.

After starting again last week, I took at look at this Couch to 5k stuff. It doesn't appeal at all; far too fiddly. I really don't want to wear headphones while running and have someone telling me to speed up, slow down, rest. Besides, the clothes I've been running in don't really have pockets. I suppose I could wear a cycling jersey if I really wanted, but I don't. So I think I'll carry on running round those streets and maybe add some hills in (not hard to find here!) after a week or two. But running three times a week rather than every day seems a good idea, thigh muscles for the recovery of.

However, one obstacle to running more than two consecutive laps is that I go past a friend's house and he's frequently sitting in his garden!
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Novice running
« Reply #137 on: April 15, 2020, 05:09:56 pm »
Managed three consecutive laps today followed by three times three-quarters. Guess that's somewhere between 4.5 to 4.8 km running with 0.9 to 0.6 km walking, but it'll be a long time till I can do that without a break.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Novice running
« Reply #138 on: April 17, 2020, 12:37:43 am »
After starting again last week, I took at look at this Couch to 5k stuff. It doesn't appeal at all; far too fiddly. I really don't want to wear headphones while running and have someone telling me to speed up, slow down, rest. Besides, the clothes I've been running in don't really have pockets.
Don't dismiss it for that: you just need a watch.
L'enfer, c'est les autos.

Re: Novice running
« Reply #139 on: April 17, 2020, 08:19:11 am »
I programmed the C25K runs into my Garmin watch.  It simply buzzed at every segment change and the screen reminded me what I would be doing if I had forgotten.

I don't recall the NHS C25K app being at all naggy, rather more encouraging.

And for carrying your smartphone if you have such a thing check out Quadlock.  Stuff for carrying your phone on the bike, whilst running and even for using it as satnav in the car.  Oh, there is a natty desktop stand too.  Great quality solution.

Re: Novice running
« Reply #140 on: April 17, 2020, 09:21:53 am »
I programmed the C25K runs into my Garmin watch.  It simply buzzed at every segment change and the screen reminded me what I would be doing if I had forgotten.

I don't recall the NHS C25K app being at all naggy, rather more encouraging.

And for carrying your smartphone if you have such a thing check out Quadlock.  Stuff for carrying your phone on the bike, whilst running and even for using it as satnav in the car.  Oh, there is a natty desktop stand too.  Great quality solution.

Amen to all that ^^^

nicknack

  • Hornblower
Re: Novice running
« Reply #141 on: April 17, 2020, 09:30:31 am »
The only problem I had with the NHS app was that it didn't work.

I've not quite finished week 2. Week 1 went ok in that I actually managed to finish it. The first two walk/runs of week 2 weren't so good. I ended up a run short on both of them - my leg muscles just gave up. My right knee is now giving me some cause for concern. It's long been a bit iffy. I should have done a walk/run yesterday but did a brisk 5km walk instead. 50 mins including the path up the cliff which slows you down somewhat. Knee was fine. I might try the run bit today but scale it back to the week one regime (or thereabouts) and see what happens.
There's no vibrations, but wait.

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Novice running
« Reply #142 on: April 17, 2020, 10:09:47 am »
You can download the NHS C25K as MP3 files, and put them on whatever MP3 player you like.
Sandisk Clip is a neat little one for running, clips onto your shorts. Or get a Garmin watch with built in MP3 player. No need to carry a phone.

slope

  • Ride Fettle Ride
    • Current pedalable joys
Re: Novice running
« Reply #143 on: April 17, 2020, 11:06:17 am »
After starting again last week, I took at look at this Couch to 5k stuff. It doesn't appeal at all; far too fiddly. I really don't want to wear headphones while running and have someone telling me to speed up, slow down, rest. Besides, the clothes I've been running in don't really have pockets.

Bought some shoes and about to start C25K today from scratch. Hope I'm not too old at 66  :-\

I too am unwilling to wear headphones - have a real dislike of the things for any use - but especially when out in the wild rural world where I am fortunate to live full of magic birdsong and gamboling rivers.

Am hoping a 1960s clockwork Omega wristwatch will be sufficient and convenient enough for the timings. I suppose I'll still pocket the iPhone11Pro in case I need to take any photos  ;D

Edit: C25K Day 1 went well. Began heavy thumping pounding heely, ended up somewhat more ball footed and less jarring. REALLY glad to have started :thumbsup:



Cudzoziemiec

  • Waking up now, put the kettle on!
Re: Novice running
« Reply #144 on: April 17, 2020, 07:08:57 pm »
Yes, I could just wear a watch. But that would require bearing in mind a pattern of relatively short run-rest cycles and keeping an eye on my watch, rather than where I'm going. As it is, I almost ran into someone (by social distancing standards at least – well under a metre!) when I swerved on to the pavement to let a car pass.

On which topic, there were at least three times as many cars on the roads today as Wednesday; same roads, though different time of day. I think the reason is that today it's raining. Traffic rebalancing is not, unfortunately, a real thing.
Days become simply the spaces between dreams, spaces between the shifting floors of time...

Re: Novice running
« Reply #145 on: April 17, 2020, 07:14:42 pm »
It's not hard to do with a basic stopwatch (i.e. not needing an app/mp3/smartwatch).

Print out or write down the instructions with timings, i.e. for Week 5 Day 1:-

"
Week 5

Day 1: a brisk 5-minute walk, then 5 minutes of running, 3 minutes of walking, 5 minutes of running, 3 minutes of walking and 5 minutes of running.
"

To make it easier for you, write it down as follows:-

00:00 Brisk Walk
05:00 Run
08:00 Walk
11:00 Run
16:00 Walk
19:00 Run
24:00 Walk (cool down)

You can write that on your wrist/arm if you don't want to carry a piece of paper.

Then all you have to do is to start the stopwatch and start walking. Whilst you're walking you just need to wait until the stopwatch gets to 05:00 and you start running. Every so often glance at the paper/instructions to see what to do next and when. If you ever lose your place you just have to look at the current elapsed time and look at the list to see what you should be doing. Following it to the exact second isn't required at all and you'll soon get used to getting the timing right. If you look at your stopwatch and it says "16:14" and you're running then it's easy to see against the list that you should be walking. You'll get used to using the walking time to check the list to see what time you need to start running again, and also remember what time you can stop running again, then you just use the subsequent period of walking to work out when to start/stop the next run. Lather, rinse, repeat.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: Novice running
« Reply #146 on: April 17, 2020, 07:41:35 pm »
I use a kitchen timer for intervals. It has big digits.


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fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Novice running
« Reply #147 on: April 17, 2020, 07:58:13 pm »
Another option is a Gymboss interval timer. Can set up all of your intervals, then it will beep or vibrate when its time to start and stop.

Though not sure if its really worth buying one nowadays. Could probably find a 2nd hand Garmin watch for a similar price.

Re: Novice running
« Reply #148 on: April 18, 2020, 11:39:12 pm »
I use a kitchen timer for intervals. It has big digits.


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You’re running around the back garden?

Re: Novice running
« Reply #149 on: April 18, 2020, 11:45:38 pm »
I am, I think, about 14 weeks into my running adventures, and thus far injury free.  Followed a garmin training programme to 5k, now on the 10k programme which involves 2x drill runs per week and one longer run of about 8 or 9 k. Loving it.