Author Topic: Pinch point strategy  (Read 22944 times)

Dibdib

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Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #25 on: 23 January, 2015, 12:46:40 pm »
Vehicles use indicators to indicate lane changes (well, normally they should!), so why shouldn't cyclists do the equivalent?

+1. Proper Observation-Signal-Manouvre for changing lanes, whether I'm in a car, motorcycle or bicycle.

For moving within the lane I'm already in, such as taking a strong primary for a pinch point, a quick shoulder check to ensure it's safe and that I'm not about to be immediately overtaken and then a clear movement. No signal usually required IMO.

Kim

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Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #26 on: 23 January, 2015, 12:56:24 pm »
Vehicles use indicators to indicate lane changes (well, normally they should!), so why shouldn't cyclists do the equivalent?

I wasn't arguing that they shouldn't, just saying that I wasn't aware of some special signal for the purpose.  I use a standard sticking-my-arm-out indication when changing lane.

Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #27 on: 23 January, 2015, 01:05:42 pm »
Actually, everyone here seems to be considering just the road calming pinch points, but there is actually a more common form of pinch point which occurs when a bus stops (or anything else, but mostly it is buses)

To manage that, I stay back from the bus all the time (what IS it with cyclists and drivers that follow right behind the bus which then stops to their eternal surprise. A bus, stopping? who'da thunk it), moving to primary near any stop (always checking for cyclists and cars first) moving out a bit more if it stops ready to pass, then matching speed to fit pulling out to overtake in traffic just behind some vehicle passing. If at all possible, I try to avoid being the jam in a sandwich. In the unusual event that I don't know I can do it safely, I stop behind the bus.

Mr Larrington

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Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #28 on: 23 January, 2015, 01:08:18 pm »
Of course some people will still attempt an overtake. The good thing about primary here is that you do have a lot of space to move into should you need it.

Some time ago one driver did clip the bollard island trying to squeeze past me. It did shunt the car sideways a bit as it happened. Obviously he had clearly seen me to prompt such a manouver. However, when I passed him in the queue of traffic up ahead and gave him a thumbs up, I don't think I could have been more invisible. Very bizarre

You get extra Smug Points if, when attempting to pass in a stupid place, they smite the traffic island with their offside wheels and blow both tyres.

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Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #29 on: 23 January, 2015, 01:13:49 pm »
Of course some people will still attempt an overtake. The good thing about primary here is that you do have a lot of space to move into should you need it.

Some time ago one driver did clip the bollard island trying to squeeze past me. It did shunt the car sideways a bit as it happened. Obviously he had clearly seen me to prompt such a manouver. However, when I passed him in the queue of traffic up ahead and gave him a thumbs up, I don't think I could have been more invisible. Very bizarre

You get extra Smug Points if, when attempting to pass in a stupid place, they smite the traffic island with their offside wheels and blow both tyres.

DNAMHIKT :smug:

or wreck the hydro gas suspension of their metro. Was probably their mums metro going by the age of them.  It was quite a lot of fluid....

Kim

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Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #30 on: 23 January, 2015, 01:17:16 pm »
Actually, everyone here seems to be considering just the road calming pinch points, but there is actually a more common form of pinch point which occurs when a bus stops (or anything else, but mostly it is buses)

I reckon the most common form is parked cars.  Which is worse than pedestrian islands, because drivers understand concrete, but not the door zone.  This is where I get the worst bullying.

Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #31 on: 23 January, 2015, 01:18:51 pm »
FF/matt - van incident was here (heading into abingdon).  It wasn't even that busy (~6.45pm), so once through the constriction there was clear run (re. oncoming vehicles) for van.  Should have taken the lane, but I think from memory there was a few cars that had been waiting at the lights behind me... 

Other one on A4185, ped crossing to/from bus stop on other side of the road.
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #32 on: 23 January, 2015, 01:31:50 pm »
I think traffic calming pinch points are much more hazardous to cyclists than pinch points like parked vehicles.  My logic is from personal experience driving a car and as a passenger.  Going past a parked vehicle such as a bus means the visibility is reduced, it's an unusual situation  - it's easy for the driver to understand what's happening. 

Driving along at a traffic calming pinch point with a cyclist nearby - everything looks normal - the island is always there, I don't need to worry about space, just need to move out a bit to get past the cyclist.  Oh, hang on, there's not enough room, oh b*(%$^cks - emergency slow and hopefully no damage done.

I really don't like these pinch points.  I don't think the safety gains for pedestrians compensate for the additional risk to cyclists.

What worries me most is sooner or later the motorist just won't see the cyclist and wipe them out.  And from legal precedent (eg Michael Mason incident Regent Street), motorists who convince the prosecuting authorities  they genuinely didn't see the cyclist can avoid any kind of prosecution, or be found not guilty even if they are  tried (David Irving incident, Southampton)

Pancho

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Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #33 on: 23 January, 2015, 01:52:06 pm »
This thread has made me realise I really have become more sanguine. I just ride very strong primary all the time and let the world flow around me - or wait behind. It's a very passive strategy with very few decisions and judgements to make. Very relaxing.

I'm sure in the past I used to jink about more. I was more paranoid about the intentions of drivers. Now I just do my thing.

I used to get angst ridden about pinch points, parked cars, etc. I go through lots of these on my commute but, until this thread, I'd forgotten how much self-imposed mental grief they used to trigger.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #34 on: 23 January, 2015, 01:54:57 pm »
Actually, everyone here seems to be considering just the road calming pinch points, but there is actually a more common form of pinch point which occurs when a bus stops (or anything else, but mostly it is buses)

I reckon the most common form is parked cars.  Which is worse than pedestrian islands, because drivers understand concrete, but not the door zone.  This is where I get the worst bullying.
Agreed on all three points: that parked vehicles are more common than islands/road narrowings, that it's usually not buses (round here it's usually a bus held up behind a lorry or van unloading, or a car reversing into a parking space, but this will vary from place to place and time to time) and most definitely that drivers do not really understand the door zone. Worryingly, a lot of experienced cyclists don't seem to understand it either - or at least, seem happy to ride in it.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.

Biggsy

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Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #35 on: 23 January, 2015, 02:04:18 pm »
I aim to make a binary decision at pinch points and everywhere: do I mind being overtaken?  Yes or no?  I don't mind close overtakes when my and their speed is low, otherwise I should ride "primary" to make overtaking me difficult/impossible.  The times when I don't do this, when I don't make a clear decision and only ride slightly further out, are the ones when trouble comes.

I reckon the most common form is parked cars.  Which is worse than pedestrian islands, because drivers understand concrete, but not the door zone.  This is where I get the worst bullying.

Me too, very much.
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hellymedic

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Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #36 on: 23 January, 2015, 02:34:19 pm »
Rachel Aldred's blog...
http://t.co/GiFYUX8W4q

mattc

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Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #37 on: 23 January, 2015, 05:31:29 pm »
FF/matt - van incident was here (heading into abingdon).  It wasn't even that busy (~6.45pm), so once through the constriction there was clear run (re. oncoming vehicles) for van.  Should have taken the lane, but I think from memory there was a few cars that had been waiting at the lights behind me... 

Why on earth weren't you on the cycle-path?!?

;)

That's an odd one, being on the "exit" of a TL-controlled junction. I must have been thru there dozens of times and never thought about it. Bit embarassing really - I usually have to sit at a Red light,  but it's probably just luck - or lack of traffic - that I haven't had a problem there on Green.

I wouldn't feel it unreasonable to take the lane there. You could probably move out even before the "first" lights - there is R-turn lane at that point that could be used by a driver in a massive hurry.
Has never ridden RAAM
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Pancho

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Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #38 on: 23 January, 2015, 06:40:53 pm »
@andyoxen:

what a horribly monotonously ugly street to ride along. The boat-cum-flowerbed is particularly tragic dumped next to the carriageway.

If it's any consolation, if a driver wants to have a yell, he'll have one whatever you do - or don't do.

I had someone drive me off the road and threaten to kill me - for having the temerity to take primary position at traffic lights with a left-hander. The police were jolly good and visited him at home to give up a bollocking. It must have quite a good bollocking as I frequently saw the blue 4x4 on my commute subsequently and his overtaking was of such high quality and roominess that he should have featured in a CTC "how to" guide.

Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #39 on: 23 January, 2015, 10:10:10 pm »
@andyoxen:

what a horribly monotonously ugly street to ride along. The boat-cum-flowerbed is particularly tragic dumped next to the carriageway.

If it's any consolation, if a driver wants to have a yell, he'll have one whatever you do - or don't do.

I had someone drive me off the road and threaten to kill me - for having the temerity to take primary position at traffic lights with a left-hander. The police were jolly good and visited him at home to give up a bollocking. It must have quite a good bollocking as I frequently saw the blue 4x4 on my commute subsequently and his overtaking was of such high quality and roominess that he should have featured in a CTC "how to" guide.

To be fair, the boat-cum-flowerbed is one of the highlights of that area .... maybe the only one mind ....

Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #40 on: 23 January, 2015, 10:15:17 pm »
FF/matt - van incident was here (heading into abingdon).  It wasn't even that busy (~6.45pm), so once through the constriction there was clear run (re. oncoming vehicles) for van.  Should have taken the lane, but I think from memory there was a few cars that had been waiting at the lights behind me... 

Other one on A4185, ped crossing to/from bus stop on other side of the road.

OK.  Don't recall having any issues there but that's maybe because a) I don't ride there at commuting time and b) I tend to go right there and enter Abingdon via the river ....  just for the views really.

Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #41 on: 23 January, 2015, 11:18:54 pm »
FF/matt - van incident was here (heading into abingdon).  It wasn't even that busy (~6.45pm), so once through the constriction there was clear run (re. oncoming vehicles) for van.  Should have taken the lane, but I think from memory there was a few cars that had been waiting at the lights behind me... 

Other one on A4185, ped crossing to/from bus stop on other side of the road.

OK.  Don't recall having any issues there but that's maybe because a) I don't ride there at commuting time and b) I tend to go right there and enter Abingdon via the river ....  just for the views really.

I don't think I've had issues there before either really -  just me getting the wrong vehicle at the wrong time.   Still difficult to get your head around why people think it's acceptable to drive like this - ho hum. 

Tonight took the lane, when the lights turned green all the way through.  Also tried indicating to take the lane in a couple of other spots - didn't feel too odd.  First pinch point, did this and probably managed to get local taxi to not go charging through.
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #42 on: 23 January, 2015, 11:24:39 pm »
@andyoxen:

what a horribly monotonously ugly street to ride along. The boat-cum-flowerbed is particularly tragic dumped next to the carriageway.

If it's any consolation, if a driver wants to have a yell, he'll have one whatever you do - or don't do.

I had someone drive me off the road and threaten to kill me - for having the temerity to take primary position at traffic lights with a left-hander. The police were jolly good and visited him at home to give up a bollocking. It must have quite a good bollocking as I frequently saw the blue 4x4 on my commute subsequently and his overtaking was of such high quality and roominess that he should have featured in a CTC "how to" guide.

The council like their Abingdon-in-bloom apparatus  :P   As FF says there are more skenic detours along the river when it's light... 
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Si_Co

Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #43 on: 24 January, 2015, 09:01:59 am »
Multiple islands in a string, the chance for multiple idiots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKQHsazeJWs


Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #44 on: 24 January, 2015, 09:10:01 am »
No wonder so few people want to ride a bicycle after reading this.
Its good advice btw.

Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #45 on: 24 January, 2015, 10:17:09 am »
andyoxen

Personally, I think our Andy is less of a bull in a china shop (oxen) and more a country gent (oxon).

why <mmmmmmoooohhh> oops 'cuse me, thankyou rr.    ;)
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #46 on: 24 January, 2015, 10:23:32 am »
Multiple islands in a string, the chance for multiple idiots

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKQHsazeJWs

Not good, difficult to know what to do, but perhaps now I might be tempted by indicating right before the second pinch; though I guess for a driver with the wrong attitude this may appear as 'blocking' the road...  (then I suppose for some, cyclist = road blocker anyway).  With pinch points reasonably close together, slightly moving from primary to secondary in the middle, then signalling intent to move to primary before the next, may be enough to put off a driver trying to beat the cyclist to the constriction(?)
Cycle and recycle.   SS Wilson

Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #47 on: 24 January, 2015, 01:29:36 pm »
In York I'd a van take strong exception to my asserting my right to my fair share of road.

After the pinch point he slammed on his brakes, knowing I was behind him.  He then started off and braked hard a couple more times.  No real problem as I had room to stop and decent brakes.  He didn't have the bottle to hang around. 

The van was signed for a company in south Wales and I called them up to complain.  The boss genuinely sounded very annoyed and said he would be waiting for his driver to discuss the matter. 

A pinch point I hate is at the end of the 30 limit.  Motorists are always flooring it.  Why they couldn't have run the 30 limit on a bit further can only be explained as stupidity.  A cyclist was quite recently killed nearby in mysterious circumstances - no witnesses.
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Graeme

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Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #48 on: 25 January, 2015, 08:48:19 pm »
Rachel Aldred's blog...
http://t.co/GiFYUX8W4q

It is distressing to think that pinch points might have been designed to put cyclists in conflict with motor traffic specifically to slow motorists down.  What is wrong with a good old fashioned reduced speed limit sign?

No wonder we find pinch points upsetting.

Some good strategies in this thread though.

Cudzoziemiec

  • Ride adventurously and stop for a brew.
Re: Pinch point strategy
« Reply #49 on: 25 January, 2015, 08:53:14 pm »
I wouldn't have thought there were enough cyclists, except in a few odd places like central London or Cambridge, for that to be a worthwhile traffic engineering strategy.
Riding a concrete path through the nebulous and chaotic future.