Author Topic: RRTY/Organizer ride  (Read 1798 times)

RRTY/Organizer ride
« on: November 07, 2017, 05:41:28 pm »
Can someone adjudicate please?

I am planning a RRTY for 2018. I am running the very excellent 3Down on September 8th next year. If I ride the organiser's ride in August (it can be between the 25th and 31st) would the organisers ride count for my August RRTY or September one?
My events: 17th Feb 2019 Willesden Reliability;  6th Apr 2019 3Down London - New Forest; 30th Jun 2019 2 Audaxes from Maidenhead;

Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2017, 05:49:18 pm »
Can someone adjudicate please?

I am planning a RRTY for 2018. I am running the very excellent 3Down on September 8th next year. If I ride the organiser's ride in August (it can be between the 25th and 31st) would the organisers ride count for my August RRTY or September one?

That is allowed.  You should ask RRTY@audax.uk what the current policy is but an emailed scan of your Brevet Card when you make your RRTY claim should probably do it.

jiberjaber

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Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2017, 05:50:26 pm »
You can pick which month you want it to be in, either the month it was actually ridden or the month of the event itself.
Regards,

Jason

Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2017, 06:01:36 pm »
Surely this depends on how you record the ride? If you appear on the finishers list for the 3 down (september) then the rrty adjudicator has no way of knowing you rode in august. However if you need the ride to count in August you could always DIY it instead.

This is how I would logically handle it. But probably best to contact rrty person directly.
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Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2017, 06:10:59 pm »
For my first RRTY I simply mailed to the RRTY coordinator that I didn't want to count a certain event  because I had ridden it the month beore so I. In the same way you could quite likely claim your event as an august ride, stating that your did the reccing in late august and nog on the official day in september.

Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2017, 08:32:36 pm »
If you wanted to keep it as a calendar event but have it counting in a different month you could also bribe ask the Recorder to amend the date of the ride on your personal record.  Only for bona fide organisers and helpers, and not recommended for BRMs that are PBP qualifiers.

Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2017, 10:49:14 pm »
IMO an organiser should benefit from the opportunity (and of course need!) to ride another day but it should be the same month as the event, not really fair to have not ridden a qualifying ride at all in the month of the event via organisers' rules and still claim RRTY as a regular rider cannot do the same. I've done route checks of my events a month early but as DIY's

Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2017, 07:16:37 am »
IMO an organiser should benefit from the opportunity (and of course need!) to ride another day but it should be the same month as the event, not really fair to have not ridden a qualifying ride at all in the month of the event via organisers' rules and still claim RRTY as a regular rider cannot do the same. I've done route checks of my events a month early but as DIY's

If you wish to discount a ride which is rated on the calender event date, a short not to the RRTY organiser will do. I did that in the past so I got the BRM rated for continental affairs but excluded from my AUK RRTY.

hillbilly

Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2017, 01:13:59 pm »
A ride done in August could potentially be treated as having happened in September?  How wonderfully paradoxical AUK can appear ;)

Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2017, 01:17:19 pm »
IMO an organiser should benefit from the opportunity (and of course need!) to ride another day but it should be the same month as the event, not really fair to have not ridden a qualifying ride at all in the month of the event via organisers' rules and still claim RRTY as a regular rider cannot do the same. I've done route checks of my events a month early but as DIY's
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Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2017, 02:03:05 pm »
IMO an organiser should benefit from the opportunity (and of course need!) to ride another day but it should be the same month as the event, not really fair to have not ridden a qualifying ride at all in the month of the event via organisers' rules and still claim RRTY as a regular rider cannot do the same. I've done route checks of my events a month early but as DIY's

Well, a month early doesn't count as a helpers' ride in any case ...

I'm not fussed, to be honest. It's quite legitimate for a helpers' ride to be homologated as though it were ridden on the event date, and that should (obviously, IMO) continue.

In the context of RRTY being a nice-to-have adjunct to AUK activities rather than being core, I think allowing someone who's done a helpers' ride to pick which month to allocate it to - for RRTY purposes only - is a nice little concession, a small reward for their volunteer efforts.

Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #11 on: November 08, 2017, 03:18:30 pm »
IMO an organiser should benefit from the opportunity (and of course need!) to ride another day but it should be the same month as the event, not really fair to have not ridden a qualifying ride at all in the month of the event via organisers' rules and still claim RRTY as a regular rider cannot do the same. I've done route checks of my events a month early but as DIY's

Well, a month early doesn't count as a helpers' ride in any case ...


it wasn't, it was a route check as I was riding on the day so there was no "helpers ride" as such

Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #12 on: November 08, 2017, 06:17:10 pm »
In the context of RRTY being a nice-to-have adjunct to AUK activities rather than being core, I think allowing someone who's done a helpers' ride to pick which month to allocate it to - for RRTY purposes only - is a nice little concession, a small reward for their volunteer efforts.

I'm afraid I disagree on this (sorry, John).  As a several-times RRTY, I understood that the date of the actual ride was what mattered, not the date of the calendar event it relates to.  This was pertinent to me, as "my" Upper Thames event is always on the first Saturday in November, so I was rather restricted in when I could ride it as my RRTY ride.

There is an easy way to get around this that maintains the spirit of the RRTY rules - ride it as a DIY by GPS, and then don't include yourself in the event finish list

Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #13 on: November 08, 2017, 07:08:01 pm »
For RRTY purposes it is the actual date you ride that is applicable.  This obviously has to be taken on trust, but you ought to declare the actual ride date to the RRTY delegate when making your claim.  Or rather: you wouldn't make the claim knowing that you hadn't qualified.  I like to think most people who go to the trouble of getting 12 rides in a row would find it hard to live with knowing that they hadn't really ridden in each consecutive month.

We've had similar questions relating to LEL.  By default it was a July ride but you can count it as an August ride (but not both!) by application when you make your claim.

bhoot

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Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #14 on: November 08, 2017, 09:55:24 pm »
Typical, I blink and miss an important conversation on YACF (too busy cleaning minor Welsh road detritus from our bikes after the weekend!).

For RRTY purposes it is the actual date you ride that is applicable.  This obviously has to be taken on trust, but you ought to declare the actual ride date to the RRTY delegate when making your claim.  Or rather: you wouldn't make the claim knowing that you hadn't qualified.  I like to think most people who go to the trouble of getting 12 rides in a row would find it hard to live with knowing that they hadn't really ridden in each consecutive month..

This is correct - if you want a ride to count for a different date than it says on your official record, let me know when you make your claim. If you have any evidence to hand by all means send it, but generally I take this on trust. I will then use your alternative date when validating your claim (so obviously it only counts once  :)). The flip side of this is that if you ride a helpers' ride in a different month and don't tell me, it will count as the calendar event month - unless I actually did the ride with you I have no way of knowing that it should be different. If this helps you claim an RRtY series that you aren't really entitled to then that is for your conscience not mine O:-)

So for now (until I get replaced by an algorithm with no discretion) don't do a helpers' ride as a DIY just to get your RRtY tick, just let me know when you claim.

wilkyboy

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Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #15 on: November 09, 2017, 12:22:46 pm »
So for now (until I get replaced by an algorithm with no discretion) don't do a helpers' ride as a DIY just to get your RRtY tick, just let me know when you claim.

Is it on the cards that you'll be replaced with an algorithm?  Do algorithms make good stokers?  Is fhoot looking forward to some algorithmic conversation on the longer rides, or will he be replaced with an algo too?  ;)

Seriously, is it on the cards that RRTY will become a mechanical "only what's in the results" type affair?  I'll have to get my backlog of claims in before then, because I've got a few trans-month helpers' rides and a LEL to let you know about.
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Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #16 on: November 09, 2017, 12:38:52 pm »
Seriously, is it on the cards that RRTY will become a mechanical "only what's in the results" type affair?

A correctly redesigned results system (not sure how deep the proposed website redesign goes) would be able to take it into account (whilst also taking into account ECEs, etc) with separate "ride date" and "award claim ride date" fields, that would help automate much of the grunt work that needs to be done, but they'd still need someone to administer it (in terms of RRTY/AAARTY) and be the person who tweaks the date upon request (i.e. LEL should be claimed on this date, this rider on the calendar event actually did the ride 3 days before as a route check, etc).
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Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #17 on: November 09, 2017, 01:41:17 pm »
Can someone adjudicate please?

I am planning a RRTY for 2018. I am running the very excellent 3Down on September 8th next year. If I ride the organiser's ride in August (it can be between the 25th and 31st) would the organisers ride count for my August RRTY or September one?

So the answer is clear - it would be the August ride if I rode it in August. However the ride can still count as me doing the 300BRM. i would obviously need another ride for September for RRTY and to tell the RRTY organiser.

BTW  I wouldnt be riding a month ahead as a couple of posters said - it would be strictly within the two week limit.

My events: 17th Feb 2019 Willesden Reliability;  6th Apr 2019 3Down London - New Forest; 30th Jun 2019 2 Audaxes from Maidenhead;

Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #18 on: November 09, 2017, 02:30:08 pm »
Is it on the cards that you'll be replaced with an algorithm?

We're ALL going to be replaced with an algorithm!

As it happens I'm working on the RRTY algorithm.  Unfortunately it only works for me so far at http://www.delphcyclist.info/AUK_RRTY.htm but I'm thinking of ways of incorporating everybody else too.  That's a bit of a head scratcher for me at the moment.

Anyway, the algorithm will have ways for the RRTY administrator to add events not on the website (such as my rides before 2000) and amending dates (such as my Perms from 2001 where the website simply lists them as taking place on 31st October).

bhoot

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Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #19 on: November 09, 2017, 06:44:34 pm »
Is it on the cards that you'll be replaced with an algorithm? 
An algorithm wouldn't be as chatty as me - which could be a good or a bad thing depending on your point of view!

Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2017, 06:39:55 am »
RRTY don't start it, just completed my 13 year unbroken 156 months , rode my safari on October 29 th. To claim my 200 rode the Eureka on November 3 rd . i think it has to be the month that is being claimed . I also do not think claiming multiple years in should be allowed i cannot claim fixed points for my safari as i am claiming 2 for the Eureka  !


frankly frankie

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Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2017, 10:13:56 am »
Seriously, is it on the cards that RRTY will become a mechanical "only what's in the results" type affair?  I'll have to get my backlog of claims in before then, because I've got a few trans-month helpers' rides and a LEL to let you know about.

Yes it is on the cards (I have had that request), but it would be a fairly elaborate bit of engineering so I don't think it's coming any time soon.

A correctly redesigned results system (not sure how deep the proposed website redesign goes) would be able to take it into account (whilst also taking into account ECEs, etc) with separate "ride date" and "award claim ride date" fields, that would help automate much of the grunt work that needs to be done, but they'd still need someone to administer it (in terms of RRTY/AAARTY) and be the person who tweaks the date upon request (i.e. LEL should be claimed on this date, this rider on the calendar event actually did the ride 3 days before as a route check, etc).

The existing results system does already have two dates embedded in it, the 'event date' and a 'date ridden' with the latter (if it exists) trumping the former. So the capability is there and it is sometimes used, but often not because of the need for manual admin and no clear path for getting it done.
It means that in an event results list, the helper rider will be listed as though they took part in the event - and this is a requirement of helper rides, laid down by ACP - but in the rider's personal rides list (which could be used when assembling a RRTY claim) the actual date ridden (not the event date) is shown.
Obviously, if you want the flexibility to claim either way, the 'date ridden' field can be massaged.
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Re: RRTY/Organizer ride
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2017, 11:49:45 am »
For RRTY purposes it is the actual date you ride that is applicable.  This obviously has to be taken on trust, but you ought to declare the actual ride date to the RRTY delegate when making your claim.  Or rather: you wouldn't make the claim knowing that you hadn't qualified.  I like to think most people who go to the trouble of getting 12 rides in a row would find it hard to live with knowing that they hadn't really ridden in each consecutive month.

OK, I'd misunderstood. I thought that it defaulted to being the nominal event date and that you could elect to count it on the actual date, rather than an implicit requirement that you should make that election.

(And of course, there remains the precedent of the 60-day January ...)