Author Topic: Sleeper tickets - again  (Read 1545 times)

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Sleeper tickets - again
« on: May 17, 2015, 01:30:02 am »
I have just been having a look at Scotrail's website with a view to booking some sleeper tickets but none seemed to be available. Are they still bookable on line? I am aware that the "bargain berths" have all but disappeared, but I tried finding the trains a few minutes ago and nothing at all appeared. I not that the National Rail website contains the following statement:

Quote
Sleeper Train Reservations
To book rail tickets and reserve Sleepers, simply visit any main rail station or rail appointed travel agent. Alternatively you can book by phone using most credit/debit cards.
Caledonian Sleeper Telesales: 0330 06 00 500
First Great Western Telesales: 0345 700 0125

the implication of which is that the tickets cannot be booked online. This would be strange.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

fuaran

  • rothair gasta
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2015, 01:53:09 am »
The Caledonian Sleeper is no longer part of the ScotRail franchise. It is now separate, run by Serco. So its a whole new website and booking system.
It does allow you to book online, up to 12 months in advance.
https://www.sleeper.scot

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2015, 02:23:08 am »
Thanks. It looks to be damned expensive compared to what I've paid previously. I'll do a bit more research but I think I might be stuck with bloody Virgin on the East Coast line.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Jacomus

  • My favourite gender neutral pronoun is comrade
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2015, 10:08:07 am »
Sounds like you should go on a Leafy adventure! :thumbsup:
"The most difficult thing is the decision to act, the rest is merely tenacity." Amelia Earhart

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #4 on: June 03, 2015, 11:10:28 pm »
its worth reading the CYCLE-and-Pets page regarding overbooking of bike places:

(click to show/hide)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2019, 10:59:35 pm »
A bump here.

I have booked a room for tomorrow night's sleeper, to return on Sunday 28th. But - although I have paid £100 each way for my room, it seems unclear whether or not I have a ticket with a room supplement, or just a room supplement. I paid for these on 29th April.

The printed page states:
Quote

22 Jul 2019 EUS-EDB
EUS     -->    EDB

TICKET TYPE                                               ROUTE
Club solo room supplement only     With travel ticket

Further down the page:

Quote
Ticket details:

This ticket has ben issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel

I have also booked bike reservations.

https://www.sleeper.scot/tickets/ followed by clicking the Room Supplements tab, includes the following:

Quote
Room supplements allow people who already hold National Rail tickets or those included in the list below to travel in rooms on board our service.

If you do not already hold one of these tickets and wish to travel with us, please do so by booking through this website or via our Guest Service Centre, but do not check the box for a Room Supplement. This will take you to our booking system for our dedicated tickets, which include your travel and accommodation, and do not require the purchase of an additional Room Supplement.

I am totally confused. Looking at the pieces of paper I have in my possession makes me think that all I have bought is a room supplement and that I don't have a ticket. But - the website now says that tomorrow night's train is sold out so I can't buy a ticket before I set off! And - surely I wouldn't have been able to make a bike reservation without first buying a valid ticket?

Has anyone else booked a sleeper lately? Or fallen foul of this extremely poorly worded load of old garbage?

I have a suspicion that I might have a bit of a fight on my hands tomorrow night. There seems to be little doubt that I have entered into a contract with Serco and that they are obliged to honour it. I think I will keep a copy of the National Rail Conditions fo Travel in my luggage. Just in case (or, pannier).

Edit: each sheet of paper bears a ticket number. The bike reservations bear the same number as the main ticket. I reckon it's probably a valid ticket with really crap wording and that I am probably worrying about nothing. But I will find out tomorrow.  ;D
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2019, 11:46:34 pm »
If all you have is a supplement then that has covered your berth and bike reservation but not travel.

The walk up fare for the journey is usually painful.

Had a look at my sleeper tickets for PBP but they mobile format PDFs so look nothing like that.

Do you remember? Did you click room supplement on the website when booking?


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barakta

  • Bastard lovechild of Yomiko Readman and Johnny 5
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2019, 11:48:35 pm »
The sleeper has had terrible reliability record lately... SERCO are a pile of shit and couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery from what I can tell.

Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2019, 11:54:36 pm »
If all you have is a supplement then that has covered your berth and bike reservation but not travel.

The walk up fare for the journey is usually painful.

Had a look at my sleeper tickets for PBP but they mobile format PDFs so look nothing like that.

Do you remember? Did you click room supplement on the website when booking?


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Further research has indicated that you are right and that Serco will be expecting me to buy another ticket on top of this one at an extra £100 each way. However, I shall argue the toss with great force: the piece of paper I printed clearly states that it is a ticket: "This ticket has been issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel". The tickets bear ticket numbers which are clearly labelled "Ticket number".

Part B of the National Rail Conditions of Travel state:

Quote
When you buy a Ticket to travel on scheduled train services on the National Rail Network you
enter into a binding contract with each of the Train Companies whose trains your Ticket allows
you to use. The Conditions set out the rights and obligations of passengers and the Train
Companies listed in Appendix A.

Serco is one of the companies listed in Appendix A.

I find it hard to believe that a court of law would regard anything that the rail company has called a "ticket" and given a "ticket number" and that bears a date and time of travel, along with a coach and berth number, is anything other than a valid ticket.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2019, 11:58:37 pm »
In this case the problems appear to belong firmly with CAF the provider of the rolling stock, you'd think the brake system would work before delivery to the customer...

Goes along with a major failure from WABTEC and their ability to refurbish 2 trains in the time they said they could do 26.

But Hitachi really took the biscuit when they managed to produce a window that was unsuitable...

Then again FMEL have 2 ships half built with no completion date in sight...


You'd think civil servants would have figured out how to write a commercial contract that discouraged such epic failures by now but this has been happening for at leatlst the last 30 years.

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Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2019, 12:01:07 am »
You have used acronyms that are unfamiliar to me. "CAF" and "WABTEC" specifically.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2019, 12:01:20 am »
If all you have is a supplement then that has covered your berth and bike reservation but not travel.

The walk up fare for the journey is usually painful.

Had a look at my sleeper tickets for PBP but they mobile format PDFs so look nothing like that.

Do you remember? Did you click room supplement on the website when booking?


Sent from my BKL-L09 using Tapatalk

Further research has indicated that you are right and that Serco will be expecting me to buy another ticket on top of this one at an extra £100 each way. However, I shall argue the toss with great force: the piece of paper I printed clearly states that it is a ticket: "This ticket has been issued subject to the National Rail Conditions of Travel". The tickets bear ticket numbers which are clearly labelled "Ticket number".

Part B of the National Rail Conditions of Travel state:

Quote
When you buy a Ticket to travel on scheduled train services on the National Rail Network you
enter into a binding contract with each of the Train Companies whose trains your Ticket allows
you to use. The Conditions set out the rights and obligations of passengers and the Train
Companies listed in Appendix A.

Serco is one of the companies listed in Appendix A.

I find it hard to believe that a court of law would regard anything that the rail company has called a "ticket" and given a "ticket number" and that bears a date and time of travel, along with a coach and berth number, is anything other than a valid ticket.
A look at a reservation supplement that comes when you book a seat reservation with a standard ticket shows that it's a daily occurrence though they always included text saying its not a ticket.

The text you've quoted however is obscure.

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FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2019, 12:05:48 am »
You have used acronyms that are unfamiliar to me. "CAF" and "WABTEC" specifically.
Sorry, that's the coach manufacturers for the sleeper and Inter7city respectively.
FMEL are Ferguson Meine Engineering Limited who are building ferries for Caledonian Marine Assets Limited which is an agency of the civil service in the form of Transport Scotland.

This has nothing to do with your ticketing issues.

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Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2019, 12:06:19 am »
The email that included the .pdf tickets is worded thus:

Quote
Dear Peter Walker
Please find your eTickets below.

Prior to travelling, please ensure you either download your tickets to your Apple Wallet, download the PDF tickets to your smart phone, or print the PDF tickets on to white A4 paper.


Enjoy your journey,

The Caledonian Sleeper Team

One would have thought that the email that included the tickets would not call them tickets and would tell me that I had to buy something else. I have printed them to white A4 paper.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2019, 12:18:44 am »
Standard email, "ticket" doesn't necessarily refer to a travel ticket though. As reservations also come on "tickets"

The choices are chance it and argue if it gets questioned on board or phone up and see what they can do.
The problem with noticing things before you board is you can't use the element of surprise unless you can fake it.

The supplement/reservation should say something like "not valid for travel" or "reservation only with a valid ticket" which it doesn't appear to say.


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Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #15 on: July 22, 2019, 01:34:48 am »
Not necessarily. It does say that it is a ticket sold subject to the National Conditions of Travel, the first of which says it is a binding contract. It also has a ticket number labelled “Ticket number”. Given that the binding contract in question is for a given berth number on a train with a specific time, date, origin and destination, it seems to me that that contract is quite explicit. All that information is printed on the piece of paper labelled as a ticket.

The other bit that intrigues me is that a bike reservation has been issued. I am sure this doesn’t have the legal status that the binding contract does, but I am pretty sure you cannot make a bike reservation without buying a ticket.

Whatever else, it has me pumped full of adrenaline when I should be going to sleep.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #16 on: July 22, 2019, 10:23:46 am »
You can make a bike reservation (or seat reservation) on any train without having a ticket.

Unless you've missed something (or you get very lucky) you're likely on the hook for Super Off Peak Return (£147). If the guard follows Virgin's rule of only selling the highest priced ticket to ticketless travellers, they might ask you for £323 for an Anytime Return...

You'd think civil servants would have figured out how to write a commercial contract that discouraged such epic failures by now but this has been happening for at leatlst the last 30 years.

AIUI All of the train contracts you refer to would have been written by the train companies. Our franchise system requires us to hand the keys to someone who doesn't know what they're doing every 8-15 years.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2019, 10:40:16 am »
You can make a bike reservation (or seat reservation) on any train without having a ticket.

Unless you've missed something (or you get very lucky) you're likely on the hook for Super Off Peak Return (£147). If the guard follows Virgin's rule of only selling the highest priced ticket to ticketless travellers, they might ask you for £323 for an Anytime Return...

You'd think civil servants would have figured out how to write a commercial contract that discouraged such epic failures by now but this has been happening for at leatlst the last 30 years.

AIUI All of the train contracts you refer to would have been written by the train companies. Our franchise system requires us to hand the keys to someone who doesn't know what they're doing every 8-15 years.
Those contracts I refer to are written by the department for transport or their devolved equivalents, the franchisees do not own the rolling stock.

Iirc The new rolling stock for Scottish services was specified and procured by transport Scotland and passed to a leasing company to manage.
The same structure iirc is used for the IEP (hst replacement)

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Wowbagger

  • Dez's butler
    • Musings of a Gentleman Cyclist
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2019, 10:56:38 am »
Thanks. I have had a conversation with an "ambassador" who was very rude and kept interrupting me. He did say that a lot of people have done exactly what I have done and given his initial conciliatory tone, I though I might be offered a discount. The ticket you mentioned comes out at £101.25 with the OBRC, so I phoned Serco again to confirm it would be valid on their train. He said it would, so that's saved me £99 over the price Scamco were going to charge. I told Twatty McTwatface that I was still going to complain about the fact that I had been mis-sold a ticket.

I didn't know that you could make a bike reservation without a ticket. That's interesting. Can't think how it might be useful though...
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2019, 11:56:29 am »
Thanks. I have had a conversation with an "ambassador" who was very rude and kept interrupting me. He did say that a lot of people have done exactly what I have done and given his initial conciliatory tone, I though I might be offered a discount. The ticket you mentioned comes out at £101.25 with the OBRC, so I phoned Serco again to confirm it would be valid on their train. He said it would, so that's saved me £99 over the price Scamco were going to charge. I told Twatty McTwatface that I was still going to complain about the fact that I had been mis-sold a ticket.

I didn't know that you could make a bike reservation without a ticket. That's interesting. Can't think how it might be useful though...
There's no mechanism to check that someone who holds a:
Season ticket
Carnet
Eurail
Interrail
Super off peak
Offpeak
Anytine
Or any other non train specific ticket

Actually has the ticket they claim to when making a reservation, leaving it to the on train staff to face the flak from passengers who get caught out by dodgily designed websites...

On the other hand when I phoned up East Coast to see if I could reserve a seat in my return from an Interrail journey they told me they wouldn't do it without seeing the pass and to go to a station to make the reservation.


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Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2019, 12:21:19 pm »
You've got to remember everything about the current system is "British Rail with a few half-arsed licks of paint", and back in the day when British Rail introduced seat reservation booking over the phone they wouldn't have had an easy way of checking if you had a ticket anyway. And with no online booking websites and cheap advances not really a thing it would have been reasonable to book a seat over the phone and then buy a ticket on the day you travel.

For anything from the BR era to change you'd need one of the train companies to really be motivated about changing it, and none of them have been.

(And of course the bike reservation system is just a lazy hack on top of the British Rail seat reservation system)

Iirc The new rolling stock for Scottish services was specified and procured by transport Scotland and passed to a leasing company to manage.
The same structure iirc is used for the IEP (hst replacement)

The normal system is the bidders to make their own arrangements with train builders (and leasing companies) which are then activated when the bidder wins the franchise. The IEP model of the government writing the contract was a huge exception.

Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2019, 12:42:33 pm »
I was looking at the sleeper for a trip in August, though it's now been postponed till next year. 
I could get a Room Supplement for £100, a ticket inc the room for £190, or a seat for £50, why it's £40 cheaper to have a seat and room than just a room is beyond me. When I do go, it'll probably be with just a seat reservation, I miss the lottery of the Bargain Berths and I'm disappointing that the Pods in the original proposals were dropped.

I didn't know that you could make a bike reservation without a ticket. That's interesting. Can't think how it might be useful though...
I sometimes get discounted EMT  tickets from Megabus, but they don't offer train reservations, so getting them afterwards is very useful.  I've also taken advantage of other online offers where booking the bike at the same time wasn't possible.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small just Far Away at the back
Re: Sleeper tickets - again
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2019, 01:17:09 pm »
You've got to remember everything about the current system is "British Rail with a few half-arsed licks of paint", and back in the day when British Rail introduced seat reservation booking over the phone they wouldn't have had an easy way of checking if you had a ticket anyway. And with no online booking websites and cheap advances not really a thing it would have been reasonable to book a seat over the phone and then buy a ticket on the day you travel.

For anything from the BR era to change you'd need one of the train companies to really be motivated about changing it, and none of them have been.

(And of course the bike reservation system is just a lazy hack on top of the British Rail seat reservation system)

Iirc The new rolling stock for Scottish services was specified and procured by transport Scotland and passed to a leasing company to manage.
The same structure iirc is used for the IEP (hst replacement)

The normal system is the bidders to make their own arrangements with train builders (and leasing companies) which are then activated when the bidder wins the franchise. The IEP model of the government writing the contract was a huge exception.

ah yeah, I've misunderstood how it operated, Wikicrapica says something like "the first operator contract since IEP" for the 385s, which I read as meaning that Transport Scotland were the first to use that process since the DfT with IEP... not that it was the first time the normal process had been used since IEP did things differently...

"British Rail with a few half-arsed licks of paint"
Well since "British Rail" was created by licking paint over the Big 4 company structure; and that restructure was done by licking paint over the small companies...

Does that mean the Calley and GSWR are still fighting to the bitter end over traffic between Glasgow and the Greenock stations?