Author Topic: Electric bikes  (Read 14722 times)

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #25 on: September 08, 2015, 03:09:34 pm »
I'd call that a pedal-assisted electric cycle. They should switch the names round!

More seriously, while the benefit to people with arthritic knees, gouty toes, metal hips or just plain loads and hills, is obvious when it comes to having a battery to provide extra power, I do wonder about the larger effect. If you don't have to do any pedalling, in what way is it different from a petrol-burning scooter? It's slower and quieter. I guess UK is probably a bit of an oddity in considering a moped to be more like a motorbike than a pedal bike, though. When I lived in Paris, mopeds didn't have registrations. Neither did the very popular microcars (like a four-wheeled moped) which meant they got parked in all sorts of ludicrous places. But that was in 1989. Nevertheless, I do feel that allowing electric power without pedalling does put a toe across the line.
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #26 on: September 08, 2015, 03:16:47 pm »
...the "one less car" principle applies. ...
Where it does apply, and someone's sold the car or not bought a car because they have leccypeds, yes. Or even where they've left the car at home. Or where they're using the volts as a means to stay on two (or three) wheels. (Has anyone made an electric unicycle yet?) 
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Kim

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #27 on: September 08, 2015, 03:19:59 pm »
More seriously, while the benefit to people with arthritic knees, gouty toes, metal hips or just plain loads and hills, is obvious when it comes to having a battery to provide extra power, I do wonder about the larger effect. If you don't have to do any pedalling, in what way is it different from a petrol-burning scooter? It's slower and quieter.

Slower and lighter.  Noise doesn't hurt people, mv2 does.

Put it another way, how is a complaint EAPC or Pedalec different from a pedal cycle?

Slower than some, faster than most.  Lighter than some, heavier than most[1].  Noisier than some, quieter than most.  I don't think there's a lot in it, IMHO.  Out riding with barakta, the main difference is which of us is faster on what gradient.  She whizzes up hills (relatively speaking), but it's easy to exceed the limiter on a gentle downhill (as a fitter cyclist, I regularly do on the flat), at which point you're doing all the work yourself.

You could invoke the cycling purity argument, but I don't think that has any place in road legality.  You might as well ban recumbents because they're 'cheating', or Chris Hoy because his legs have a power rating in line with a motorcycle.


Quote
I guess UK is probably a bit of an oddity in considering a moped to be more like a motorbike than a pedal bike, though. When I lived in Paris, mopeds didn't have registrations. Neither did the very popular microcars (like a four-wheeled moped) which meant they got parked in all sorts of ludicrous places. But that was in 1989. Nevertheless, I do feel that allowing electric power without pedalling does put a toe across the line.

Yes, I see electric assist cycles filling the void left by the illegalisation of practical mopeds, and as a practical alternative to Class 3 invalid carriages.  They're cheap, easy to park, gets you where you're going in reasonable time and doesn't require undue physical effort even if there are bastard hills in the way.  As a bonus, they're fairly safe and don't belch fumes.

Providing a power boost to Cyclists who need one is an edge case.


[1] Though as usual this is dwarfed by the variation in rider weight.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #28 on: September 08, 2015, 03:46:00 pm »
Thinking of the one I saw yesterday, in shape and size (but not noise or pollution) it was very similar to the little Honda (think it was a Honda... so long ago) I had way back in the 80s (but not in Paris!) It's probably lighter, though not by much – a basic moped is pretty light – and if it's limited to "around 15mph" then it's slower. I hope it's also more reliable! But, just as mopeds give way to larger motorbikes, and just as we used to file the baffles out of those restricted mopeds, it will soon be faster. As AWL says, some already are.

But what I observe from watching people with electric assisted pedal bikes, ones which are really just bikes with motors in the front hub (or wherever), it's at low-speed that the extra power really makes a difference. You have something that (unlike the scooter-shaped wotsit) is bike-sized but has power on tap. This makes Silly Sustrans Gates a doddle. For instance, see this steep hill here. Could you, on a nuprong with a ten-year-old sitting on the rack, ride up that hill then do a u-turn onto that steep, narrow ramp up to the high pavement, just in front of the cream house with the green windows? I couldn't. I'm not even going to try. But every morning I used to see an unathletic-looking middle-aged bloke do just that. I just hope Sustrans don't realise this or they'll be thinking up new ways to slow us all down!
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Kim

  • Timelord
Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #29 on: September 08, 2015, 04:43:53 pm »
But what I observe from watching people with electric assisted pedal bikes, ones which are really just bikes with motors in the front hub (or wherever), it's at low-speed that the extra power really makes a difference.  You have something that (unlike the scooter-shaped wotsit) is bike-sized but has power on tap.

Yep, that's the main benefit after hill climbing.



Quote
This makes Silly Sustrans Gates a doddle. For instance, see this steep hill here. Could you, on a nuprong with a ten-year-old sitting on the rack, ride up that hill then do a u-turn onto that steep, narrow ramp up to the high pavement, just in front of the cream house with the green windows? I couldn't. I'm not even going to try. But every morning I used to see an unathletic-looking middle-aged bloke do just that. I just hope Sustrans don't realise this or they'll be thinking up new ways to slow us all down!

I probably couldn't, but I bet there are forumites who can.  Similarly the Ackers Sisyphus Slalom Challenge would be a doddle on an electric bike with a shorter wheelbase.

I'm sure most of us on YACF could manage 250W for a short duration, the great thing about electrickery is that it brings that to those who can't or don't want to, and that it keeps going.  Barakta will testify that having the acceleration to clear junctions in reasonable time makes cycling in traffic much less intimidating.

Perhaps the issue with electric assist is that it makes unathletic middle-aged cyclists with luggage perform manoeuvres that you'd only usually expect from athletic looking men on fast bikes.  Which is only really a problem if the electric cyclist rides like a cock, and should become less unexpected as electric bikes become more common.
Careful, Kim. Your sarcasm's showing...

Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #30 on: September 08, 2015, 04:44:09 pm »
I'm currently in Holland where cycles are all over the place and quite surprised at the number of EAPCs. They appear to be used by both young and old.

Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #31 on: September 08, 2015, 05:17:33 pm »
Mine is one of these: http://wooshbikes.co.uk/?sirocco-cdl I got it cheap off eBay from a bloke in Brum. It has a throttle, but I use the pedal sensing set up. It seems to eat chains, so I've fitted a decent one to see if that helps. The Kendas were swapped for M+'s after I realised that Kenda's definition of puncture resistance was rather different to mine. The front fork is horrible and heavy, but ICBA to change it. It'll only ever be used for the commute.

I really do need to upgrade the bell, as it is rather quick on cyclepaths.
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #32 on: September 08, 2015, 06:04:49 pm »
But what I observe from watching people with electric assisted pedal bikes, ones which are really just bikes with motors in the front hub (or wherever), it's at low-speed that the extra power really makes a difference.  You have something that (unlike the scooter-shaped wotsit) is bike-sized but has power on tap.

Yep, that's the main benefit after hill climbing.



Quote
This makes Silly Sustrans Gates a doddle. For instance, see this steep hill here. Could you, on a nuprong with a ten-year-old sitting on the rack, ride up that hill then do a u-turn onto that steep, narrow ramp up to the high pavement, just in front of the cream house with the green windows? I couldn't. I'm not even going to try. But every morning I used to see an unathletic-looking middle-aged bloke do just that. I just hope Sustrans don't realise this or they'll be thinking up new ways to slow us all down!

I probably couldn't, but I bet there are forumites who can.  Similarly the Ackers Sisyphus Slalom Challenge would be a doddle on an electric bike with a shorter wheelbase.

I'm sure most of us on YACF could manage 250W for a short duration, the great thing about electrickery is that it brings that to those who can't or don't want to, and that it keeps going.  Barakta will testify that having the acceleration to clear junctions in reasonable time makes cycling in traffic much less intimidating.

Perhaps the issue with electric assist is that it makes unathletic middle-aged cyclists with luggage perform manoeuvres that you'd only usually expect from athletic looking men on fast bikes.  Which is only really a problem if the electric cyclist rides like a cock, and should become less unexpected as electric bikes become more common.
I don't think what the electro-cyclists do is the problem. The potential problem comes from popular response to their behaviour, which is then translated into Yet Sillier Sustrans Gates and crackdowns on bikes of any sort in pedstrian areas and so on, because Electric Menace.
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Wowbagger

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #33 on: September 09, 2015, 12:31:19 pm »
...the "one less car" principle applies. ...
Where it does apply, and someone's sold the car or not bought a car because they have leccypeds, yes. Or even where they've left the car at home. Or where they're using the volts as a means to stay on two (or three) wheels. (Has anyone made an electric unicycle yet?)

Yes. The problem was that they still fell over sideways to they bolted them together and called them a Segway.
Oh, Bach without any doubt. Bach every time for me.

Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #34 on: September 09, 2015, 12:51:57 pm »
...the "one less car" principle applies. ...
Where it does apply, and someone's sold the car or not bought a car because they have leccypeds, yes. Or even where they've left the car at home. Or where they're using the volts as a means to stay on two (or three) wheels. (Has anyone made an electric unicycle yet?)

Yes. The problem was that they still fell over sideways to they bolted them together and called them a Segway.

I'm seeing increasing numbers of people commuting on these on my travels.

Tigerrr

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #35 on: September 09, 2015, 02:40:05 pm »
My kit arrived today. Tiny battery, compact motor no bigger than a SON dynamo and a load of wiring bits. Got to mod the bike a bit. This is going to be interesting.
Humanists UK Funeral and Wedding Celebrant. Trying for godless goodness.
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Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #36 on: September 09, 2015, 04:23:01 pm »
...the "one less car" principle applies. ...
Where it does apply, and someone's sold the car or not bought a car because they have leccypeds, yes. Or even where they've left the car at home. Or where they're using the volts as a means to stay on two (or three) wheels. (Has anyone made an electric unicycle yet?)

Yes. The problem was that they still fell over sideways to they bolted them together and called them a Segway.

I'm seeing increasing numbers of people commuting on these on my travels.
That looks fun but barmy.  :o
I do not ride a great big Mercian, gangster tanwalls, fixed cog in the back.

Pedaldog

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #37 on: September 09, 2015, 10:46:55 pm »
Can we keep this thread quiet, let it slip  out of sight a bit. you never know when the Sinclair clan might stumble in and have a New Idea!

contango

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #38 on: September 10, 2015, 04:35:48 am »
self build might be way to go. I have a spare bike that might work.
Anyone know of a London (west) stockist that might do this? Currently my mobility is limited.

There's one in Hampton Wick, a short way north of Kingston Bridge. Don't know if it's any good.
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Tigerrr

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #39 on: September 10, 2015, 07:18:45 am »
I am building the bike up today.
Humanists UK Funeral and Wedding Celebrant. Trying for godless goodness.
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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #40 on: September 10, 2015, 07:35:00 am »
self build might be way to go. I have a spare bike that might work.
Anyone know of a London (west) stockist that might do this? Currently my mobility is limited.
There's one in Hampton Wick, a short way north of Kingston Bridge. Don't know if it's any good.

Yup. London Electric Bike Co
Rust never sleeps

Tigerrr

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #41 on: September 11, 2015, 12:09:12 pm »
Built it. Electric assist brommie. Indistinguishable from the original except for son type front hub. Silent in use, powers up to a nice cruising speed without pedalling and works just as well with pedals too. Can't believe how small the batt is though, looks like something off a drill. Going to take the dog out for a 6 miler this pm and we will see if it lasts.
Might need a bigger batt but the bigger ones are a lot more pricy.
Fitting instructions were superb.
Humanists UK Funeral and Wedding Celebrant. Trying for godless goodness.
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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #42 on: September 11, 2015, 12:27:44 pm »
self build might be way to go. I have a spare bike that might work.
Anyone know of a London (west) stockist that might do this? Currently my mobility is limited.

There's one in Hampton Wick, a short way north of Kingston Bridge. Don't know if it's any good.

Just round the corner from Sigma Sport should you feel the need to look at upwrongs ;)

Tigerrr

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #43 on: September 11, 2015, 05:55:41 pm »
Took it out. It is brill. Completely silent. Barely weighs more than the basic bike.  Twist & go, picks up smartly and goes to a gentle cruising speed. Not that fast, but fast enough for getting about. Pedalling at same timereducesthe battery use which is useful. Popped me up the hill on the underpass with no pedal action at all.
I should point out I have a popped disc in back and no leg push at all right now so that is big plus. I can get to shops etc now easy.
I run Bosun the dog twice daily attached to me on the bike, on extension lead, for a good 5 miles each walk, sometimes more. Batt coped perfectly and dog suitably knackered at the end.
This bike is a revelation. Mrs Tiger gave it a go and found she could whizz up the street and back, pedalling but just like she had proper cycling legs. Opens up the possibility of actually going for rides together.
I am getting a spare batt to extend range, they are so light. The batts drop into the brommie bag at the front so completely invisible.
Humanists UK Funeral and Wedding Celebrant. Trying for godless goodness.
http://humanist.org.uk/michaellaird

Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #44 on: September 12, 2015, 12:50:01 pm »
^
That sounds like excellent news. Good that you are, once again, awheel.
Wishing you a speedy recovery.

Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #45 on: October 06, 2015, 02:57:36 am »
Also look into the difference between crank drive and hub drive bikes. I believe crank drive gives more torque and better hill climbing but can't be retrofitted into an existing frame.

True I think for Bosch and Panasonic and similar crank drives which require a bespoke BB housing for all the motor gubbins.

However, Bafang / 8Fun make BBS01 / BBS02 crank drives that CAN be retrofitted to existing frames with standard 68mm - 73mm BBs...

Tigerrr

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #46 on: October 06, 2015, 07:35:21 am »
I have now been running the converted brommie for a month. With 2 of the little batteries and using them as an assist rather than as a motor, it has a 2.5 hour range. That is a lot of ground, about 20k.
I am going to get a crank system, more powerful, for the old commuter hybrid and see how that goes.
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Biggsy

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #47 on: October 06, 2015, 12:10:21 pm »
I've now saved up enough money to buy a decent conversion kit, but I'm procrastinating for fear of it making me lazy.  I can be thinking about the details meanwhile anyway.......

Is there an electric bottom bracket that would allow a triple chainset with a fairly small Q factor?
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Tigerrr

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #48 on: October 06, 2015, 02:08:14 pm »
I've now saved up enough money to buy a decent conversion kit, but I'm procrastinating for fear of it making me lazy.  I can be thinking about the details meanwhile anyway.......

Is there an electric bottom bracket that would allow a triple chainset with a fairly small Q factor?
I think not. If you run an electric BB motor then you lose the triple. If you want to keep the triple you buy a hub motor.
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Biggsy

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Re: Electric bikes
« Reply #49 on: October 06, 2015, 02:20:38 pm »
Thanks.  Not a surprise, really.  I could look into a custom made (or terribly bodged) crankset, but I'm more likely take the easy option of a hub motor.  I fancy a geared one rather than direct drive.
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