Author Topic: Base training  (Read 65977 times)

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Base training
« on: September 16, 2015, 02:42:28 pm »
I decided that this year, after PBP, I would avoid the drop in fitness that I usually have. Firstly, I am doing Bristol Ariel's 'Learn to Row' course which is 6 weeks long two sessions a week. I'm really enjoying that.

However, I also decided I would embark on a base training programme immediately after PBP. The first 4 weeks have been quite tedious, to be honest. It's consisted of 4 endurance-zone workouts (with some form drills that do help relieve the tedium) per week, which started at 90 minutes in week 1, and peaked at 2h last week (week 3). This is week 4 and it's a recovery week so down to 4x1.5h endurance.

What I noticed in the first few weeks was the drop in HR for the same effort level - in fact the average has dropped by over 10bpm. I suspect this indicates PBP recovery rather than training.

Next week it changes up and I'm looking forwards to some variety. On Tuesday I should be doing an FTP test and that will adjust the following workouts to my current training level. Then on Thursday, there's a two hour tempo session, Saturday has a 2h15 Tempo session and Sunday a 2h15 endurance session. However as I'll be rowing on Sunday, that would be the one to drop.

Ok, so maybe I'm not looking forwards to next week after all.
 :facepalm:

I'm hoping that by starting already that by spring next year instead of having to rebuild from a low base I'll be building on top of what I've gained this year. We'll see how that goes.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2015, 04:32:49 pm »
I've decided to enjoy a Transition Phase before starting base training again.

Mostly this has involved:

1. Nursing post-PBP aches and pains.
2. Abandoning an audax due to (1).
3. Getting a cold.
4. Putting on weight.
5. Eating poorly, which has failed to help (1) and (3), and more than succeeded in helping (4).

 :thumbsup:

The rowing machine is making come-hither faces, but I'm looking the other way and playing hard to get.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2015, 01:49:21 pm »
I hope your lurgy clears up soon. And the knee.

Squats last night. My legs are telling me all about it.

Re: Base training
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2015, 03:23:49 pm »
I hope your lurgy clears up soon. And the knee.

Thanks :).

I'm hoping this coming weekend will kick me into life.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #4 on: September 20, 2015, 08:06:42 pm »
Right, the first 4 weeks are done. I skipped Thursday (sore from squats) and Saturday. But I did ride for 3 hours today, which compensates.

Fitness test coming up on Tuesday.  :sick:

Re: Base training
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2015, 01:35:42 pm »
I'm not convinced that anyone coming in from an audax background really needs or benefits from the base period of a conventional structured plan as defined by a coach like Friel.

My base work is 10hrs/week of commuting but I don't use a heart rate monitor or a power meter.   It's just steady mileage.   In 4 weeks time I will start a programme of 3 turbo sessions a week (1 tempo, 1 set of pure threshold work and one of tempo/threshold combined), totalling circa 4hrs, and a 3-4hr tempo ride at a weekend.   All the turbo sessions will be in position on the TT bike with a TV in front of me to keep the head up.

The average tester seems to do about 6-8hrs a week of training so can often be lacking in what we term endurance.   Of all the things I've worked on in the last 2 years, endurance has taken a back seat.

Re: Base training
« Reply #6 on: September 21, 2015, 06:08:34 pm »
Interesting stuff. I read a paper the other day that reviewed the training regimes of elite athletes across a range of endurance sports, and looked at changes to the program of elite and sub elite athletes. Some interesting extracts:

- easy endurance or base work comprised around 80% of their training time in all sports
- the balance consisted of a mix of tempo/threshhold work and intervals (not all out, but event dependent)
- increasing the proportion of high intensity work led to reduced improvement over the testing periods (18 weeks to across a season) and to burn out before season end
- it takes time/years to progressively  build the base to able to train at the very high volumes used by elite athletes
- the nature and frequency of high intensity work changes between off season and when peaking for racing
- elite cyclists have very high training volumes up to 30 hour per week. Runners and others peak at about 15 hours per week, but often less. Cycling causes less muscle trauma and inflammation than running, but there is probably also a tradition and event specific requirement at work here
- amateur/recreational athletes tend to centre their training effort around threshhold/tempo intensity - this is probably psychological as they (we) don't feel we are doing enough at easy pace, but the hard work done when it should be easy means that we can't perform well in the higher intensity workouts

I suspect my running performances when young could have been improved if I'd taken it a bit easier and developed over a few years more!

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #7 on: September 21, 2015, 10:13:03 pm »
I did a lot of higher intensity training in the lead-up to PBP and though my FTP further improved over what I’d already done during the season, my fat burning was not as good as it had been after 6 weekends in a row of Audax riding. For people who have limited time to train, i.e. the likes of us, the balance may need to swing towards higher intensity workouts, but I suspect there’s a penalty.

I’ll be doing an FTP test tomorrow, will be interesting to see how it’s changed since before PBP.

Re: Base training
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2015, 09:16:04 am »
A rough idea of how well a cyclist is progressing is the time taken between two marker points ten miles apart at each end of a known course.
Most clubs have what’s called ‘Time trials’ on a weekly basis.

Combine these with a daily commute and a weekend hundred miler and you’ve got a half decent ‘Base training’ regime.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2015, 12:54:28 am »
Didn’t do the fitness test last night as was a bit tired.

Did it tonight and realised I shouldn’t have had such a large dinner or waited a bit longer.  :sick: Managed not to actually vomit though.

My FTP estimate from that is slightly lower than pre-PBP - this is not surprising since my training has all been base endurance and no high intensity. Now onto the next phase of the training programme…

Oh and my max HR is at least 191. Which means I’m 29, right?

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/2371955-8-Minute-Test

Jakob

Re: Base training
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2015, 08:05:33 am »

- amateur/recreational athletes tend to centre their training effort around threshhold/tempo intensity - this is probably psychological as they (we) don't feel we are doing enough at easy pace, but the hard work done when it should be easy means that we can't perform well in the higher intensity workouts

I think this is more because it offers best value for time spent!. HIIT can be highly effective, even when training for endurance.

Re: Base training
« Reply #11 on: September 24, 2015, 09:31:38 am »
At some point on most Audax rides, the road inclines upwards, and is called a “hill”. This is where HIIT bears fruit.

Re: Base training
« Reply #12 on: September 24, 2015, 10:43:26 pm »

- amateur/recreational athletes tend to centre their training effort around threshhold/tempo intensity - this is probably psychological as they (we) don't feel we are doing enough at easy pace, but the hard work done when it should be easy means that we can't perform well in the higher intensity workouts

I think this is more because it offers best value for time spent!. HIIT can be highly effective, even when training for endurance.

I'm not sure that's the whole case actually, but there is a difference in that it probably offers faster gains in the short term, but lower performance over a 2 or 3 year plan. Also, the lower volume of most recreational athletes may mean that a bias to more intense work is useful. Not found the research on that yet.

HIIT, one of the current vogues, is well supported for un or part trined individuals, but not for well trained (elite) athletes. Of course, that's probably fine for most of us:)

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2015, 12:09:38 am »
It's the consistent progression thing that I'm aiming for hence going back into training straight after PBP. My FTP/kg is around 250-260W. At the start of the year it was around 220W. I'm going to aim to be at 250W in January and see if I can get to 275W by next summer in time for whatever the big event is.

From what I've seen HIIT isn't a miracle cure so I'll stick to the traditional base programme for now. I'm also doing strength training and this should improve my core strength.


Re: Base training
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2015, 05:37:49 pm »


The question to which I never received an answer to was,,, "Why did Chris Hoy insist on performing 'one rep to failure' sets?"

I'll answer. For maximum muscle growth.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2015, 06:49:00 pm »
I target the 4..6 or 5..7 rep ranges for the major muscle group lifts. I'm not sure it's ideal for endurance cycling to do such low rep ranges though.

Jakob

Re: Base training
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2015, 07:27:44 am »

HIIT, one of the current vogues, is well supported for un or part trined individuals, but not for well trained (elite) athletes. Of course, that's probably fine for most of us:)

Nope. The Tabata protocol was developed specifically with pro athletes in mind.

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/tabata.htm

Quote
In Tabata's study, the researchers found that athletes who used the routine five days a week for six weeks improved their maximum aerobic capacity by 14% and improved their anaerobic capacity by 28%. A study of traditional aerobic training of running at 70% of aerobic capacity for 60 minutes for six weeks showed an improvement in aerobic capacity of 9.5% and no effect on anaerobic capacity.

Dr. Tabata's Team found that as well as improving your aerobic and anaerobic capacity it is very effective in lowering the ratio of lean body mass to fat without compromising your muscle size.

Re: Base training
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2015, 12:21:28 pm »
Ride round a cycle track. Ride easy for 1 1/2 laps and balls out for half a lap until 50 sprints are done.
Ah, takes me back.
If you’ve ever ridden a ‘Devil takes the hindmost’, you’ll know what I mean.

When was Tabata? 1996. He was a bit late to the game.

mattc

  • "Hannibal"
  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Base training
« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2015, 05:17:04 pm »

HIIT, one of the current vogues, is well supported for un or part trined individuals, but not for well trained (elite) athletes. Of course, that's probably fine for most of us:)

Nope. The Tabata protocol was developed specifically with pro athletes in mind.

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/tabata.htm

Quote
In Tabata's study, the researchers found that athletes who used the routine five days a week for six weeks improved their maximum aerobic capacity by 14% and improved their anaerobic capacity by 28%. A study of traditional aerobic training of running at 70% of aerobic capacity for 60 minutes for six weeks showed an improvement in aerobic capacity of 9.5% and no effect on anaerobic capacity.

Dr. Tabata's Team found that as well as improving your aerobic and anaerobic capacity it is very effective in lowering the ratio of lean body mass to fat without compromising your muscle size.
[my bold]
The trouble here is that no serious athlete will use such a simplistic schedule. So its easy to beat it!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Base training
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2015, 12:34:26 am »

HIIT, one of the current vogues, is well supported for un or part trined individuals, but not for well trained (elite) athletes. Of course, that's probably fine for most of us:)

Nope. The Tabata protocol was developed specifically with pro athletes in mind.

http://www.brianmac.co.uk/tabata.htm

Quote
In Tabata's study, the researchers found that athletes who used the routine five days a week for six weeks improved their maximum aerobic capacity by 14% and improved their anaerobic capacity by 28%. A study of traditional aerobic training of running at 70% of aerobic capacity for 60 minutes for six weeks showed an improvement in aerobic capacity of 9.5% and no effect on anaerobic capacity.

Dr. Tabata's Team found that as well as improving your aerobic and anaerobic capacity it is very effective in lowering the ratio of lean body mass to fat without compromising your muscle size.


No well trained or elite athlete is going to find an additional 14% aerobic capacity through any change in training. The results of the study comparing the two, very simplistic, protocols and getting a 9.5% improvement from simple 70% vo2 max running for 6 weeks demonstrates/confirms that the individuals included were not well trained elites.

The other key to achieving high levels of performance (apart from genetic inheritance) is time - athletes are developed over years not over 6 weeks. The issue in the most recent studies that have considered increasing the proportion of high intensity training is that athletes do not achieve the same ultimate performance and burn out after strong early season performances.

Intervals have a foundational place in training, but they leverage off the steady base work and don't replace it.

Re: Base training
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2015, 12:38:18 am »


The question to which I never received an answer to was,,, "Why did Chris Hoy insist on performing 'one rep to failure' sets?"

I'll answer. For maximum muscle growth.

Or just to show off?

Australian study has just confirmed that muscle quality in body builders is lower than that in athletes or even untrained men. Training for volume rather than efficiency. Athletes, generally, need to train for maximum strength and speed/responsiveness within the maximum weight they can afford to carry - therefore smaller efficient muscles are good (well illustrated by Usain the Bolt)

(reddit)

Jakob

Re: Base training
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2015, 09:18:43 am »
http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2013/11/the-advantages-of-high-intensity.html
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2011/05000/Effects_of_5_Weeks_of_High_Intensity_Interval.12.aspx

Plenty out there.

The reference to Hoy's maximum muscle growth, shouldn't be compared to bodybuilders, which is a completely different kettle of fish.  Bodybuilding is traditionally high rep count, where as power lifting is typically maximum 5 reps/set (depending on program). Same goes for O-lifters and you'll struggle to find anyone calling their quality of muscles for 'poor'.


Re: Base training
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2015, 09:36:42 am »
What’s “Base training” anyway?

Is that some new term for ‘Fit for active service’?

Re: Base training
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2015, 09:40:40 am »
http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2013/11/the-advantages-of-high-intensity.html
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2011/05000/Effects_of_5_Weeks_of_High_Intensity_Interval.12.aspx

Plenty out there.

The reference to Hoy's maximum muscle growth, shouldn't be compared to bodybuilders, which is a completely different kettle of fish.  Bodybuilding is traditionally high rep count, where as power lifting is typically maximum 5 reps/set (depending on program). Same goes for O-lifters and you'll struggle to find anyone calling their quality of muscles for 'poor'.

Thirty years ago, my trainer said to me "If you don't try the weight, you'll never lift the weight."

I replied "Do or do not. There is no 'try'."   ;D

Re: Base training
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2015, 09:55:35 pm »
http://www.scienceofsocceronline.com/2013/11/the-advantages-of-high-intensity.html
http://journals.lww.com/nsca-jscr/Abstract/2011/05000/Effects_of_5_Weeks_of_High_Intensity_Interval.12.aspx

Plenty out there.

The reference to Hoy's maximum muscle growth, shouldn't be compared to bodybuilders, which is a completely different kettle of fish.  Bodybuilding is traditionally high rep count, where as power lifting is typically maximum 5 reps/set (depending on program). Same goes for O-lifters and you'll struggle to find anyone calling their quality of muscles for 'poor'.

I was being slightly facetious with Chris Hoy comment, but the point about muscle quality is serious. Maximal lifts are used from time to time by a lot of power athletes and,presumably, are understood to contribute to adaptation in a positive manner.

The football study is so flawed, or at least focused on a different group, as to have no relevance to the topic of training to achieve a high level in endurance sport. Too short, untrained individuals (age) etc. It's like asking if 5 or 6 weeks sharpening at the end of a winter of Base training has a positive impact - of course it does. However, doing exclusively the HIIT work all winter probably will leave you slower and possibly broken down.

Of course I could be wrong, but my experience is that too much quality gets quick results and then leads to colds, overtraining and underperformance. Been there and got the t shirt.

Cheers

Mike