Author Topic: Base training  (Read 132456 times)

Re: Base training
« Reply #125 on: March 03, 2016, 06:43:06 am »
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?

Fitness.

As time goes on and you train harder, your pulmonary and cardiovascular system will develop to :-

1/ pump blood sooner, and
2/ recover quicker.

Its a matter of CO2 in the blood and how fast the P and CV systems can shift it out of the lungs.

Give it a few years.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #126 on: March 08, 2016, 12:53:24 am »
Tonight I bailed before the end of the final interval. Harder than the same workout last week. I think a recovery week will happen next week.

Re: Base training
« Reply #127 on: March 08, 2016, 01:11:01 pm »
Tonight I bailed before the end of the final interval. Harder than the same workout last week. I think a recovery week will happen next week.

Bet you didn't go to the toilet before your session  ;D

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #128 on: March 09, 2016, 09:39:16 pm »
Tonight I used the road bike. Felt relatively easy. It's positional.

That was over unders and it was so easy I'll be disappointed if my next FTP test doesn't show a gain of at least a few Watts.

Re: Base training
« Reply #129 on: March 10, 2016, 09:22:09 am »
Tonight I used the road bike. Felt relatively easy. It's positional.

That was over unders and it was so easy I'll be disappointed if my next FTP test doesn't show a gain of at least a few Watts.

Definitely easier when you sit up.   If I'm really struggling towards the end of an interval I tend to sit up but keep the speed the same.

Having a wobble at the moment and not got on the turbo since Saturday, but I have entered 2 25s and a 10 for April so hope to get some motivation back.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #130 on: March 10, 2016, 11:00:01 am »
I've got a 10 on Saturday so I'll be able to see where I am at.

Re: Base training
« Reply #131 on: March 11, 2016, 10:28:17 am »
Tonight I used the road bike. Felt relatively easy. It's positional.

That was over unders and it was so easy I'll be disappointed if my next FTP test doesn't show a gain of at least a few Watts.

Definitely easier when you sit up.   If I'm really struggling towards the end of an interval I tend to sit up but keep the speed the same.

Having a wobble at the moment and not got on the turbo since Saturday, but I have entered 2 25s and a 10 for April so hope to get some motivation back.

Ride the WHOLE FTP test in the same riding position as you would ride a race.
If you ‘sit up’ in the last 200 yards of a 10 miler, its like opening a parachute.
 
‘Drop the laundry’ AFTER you break the beams at the top end of the strip.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #132 on: March 11, 2016, 10:54:59 am »
Tonight I used the road bike. Felt relatively easy. It's positional.

That was over unders and it was so easy I'll be disappointed if my next FTP test doesn't show a gain of at least a few Watts.

Definitely easier when you sit up.   If I'm really struggling towards the end of an interval I tend to sit up but keep the speed the same.

Having a wobble at the moment and not got on the turbo since Saturday, but I have entered 2 25s and a 10 for April so hope to get some motivation back.

Ride the WHOLE FTP test in the same riding position as you would ride a race.
If you ‘sit up’ in the last 200 yards of a 10 miler, its like opening a parachute.
 
‘Drop the laundry’ AFTER you break the beams at the top end of the strip.

http://blog.trainerroad.com/should-i-be-in-my-aero-position-during-ftp-tests/

Re: Base training
« Reply #133 on: March 11, 2016, 11:27:06 am »
Aha, an argument!!  ;)

In a TT you need the maximum power that gets you to the end quickest. That is done in the position set up on the bike by your fitting service.
In training mode on the turbo, you want to train the muscle bundles that are appropriate to the riding position you take on the bike in the real race.
Therefore, if any other position is taken in training on the turbo, muscle bundles are being trained that may not necessarily be used in the race, and muscle bundles that are primarily used in the race are being neglected in training.

In weightlifting, its called “Strict form” where in training, the weightlifter takes as identical as possible movement to lift the bar as would be done in competition.

Oh, we’ve all seen photos of Chris Hoy in the smiths machine shifting big weights. This is good, but Sir Chris went out on the track or sat on the ergometer and trained in his racing position.

The fundamental theory of a turbo trainer is to SIMULATE a bicycle ride. If the training is done for a TT, take the TT riding position and use your imagination as the 25 miles counts up on the distance meter.
If the FTP test is to gauge your power during a TT, also take the TT position. Any other position to get a higher FTP value is cheating yourself.

Re: Base training
« Reply #134 on: March 11, 2016, 01:21:20 pm »
Aha, an argument!!  ;)

In a TT you need the maximum power that gets you to the end quickest. That is done in the position set up on the bike by your fitting service.
In training mode on the turbo, you want to train the muscle bundles that are appropriate to the riding position you take on the bike in the real race.
Therefore, if any other position is taken in training on the turbo, muscle bundles are being trained that may not necessarily be used in the race, and muscle bundles that are primarily used in the race are being neglected in training.

In weightlifting, its called “Strict form” where in training, the weightlifter takes as identical as possible movement to lift the bar as would be done in competition.

Oh, we’ve all seen photos of Chris Hoy in the smiths machine shifting big weights. This is good, but Sir Chris went out on the track or sat on the ergometer and trained in his racing position.

The fundamental theory of a turbo trainer is to SIMULATE a bicycle ride. If the training is done for a TT, take the TT riding position and use your imagination as the 25 miles counts up on the distance meter.
If the FTP test is to gauge your power during a TT, also take the TT position. Any other position to get a higher FTP value is cheating yourself.

Yebbut, if I do 2 * 20 mins and sit up for the last 3 mins as I'm struggling and I do this 1 week out of a 4 week block, then I have done less than 2% out of position.   Net difference will be chuff all.   I do 2 other sessions a week (OK not this week) that total over 3hrs and all of that is in position.

I've never done an FTP test.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #135 on: March 11, 2016, 01:28:27 pm »
I have two 'A' races this year. Mille Pennines Audax and Mersey Roads. I'll train in both positions. Tomorrow's 10 is a 'C' race.

When training on the TT bike rather than reduce the intensity of the workout I've done what TR advise which is to progressively spend more time in position as I get used to it.

Re: Base training
« Reply #136 on: March 11, 2016, 01:30:42 pm »
I have two 'A' races this year. Mille Pennines Audax and Mersey Roads. I'll train in both positions. Tomorrow's 10 is a 'C' race.

When training on the TT bike rather than reduce the intensity of the workout I've done what TR advise which is to progressively spend more time in position as I get used to it.

Thought you weren't doing the Mersey Roads ?

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #137 on: March 11, 2016, 01:38:38 pm »
I have two 'A' races this year. Mille Pennines Audax and Mersey Roads. I'll train in both positions. Tomorrow's 10 is a 'C' race.

When training on the TT bike rather than reduce the intensity of the workout I've done what TR advise which is to progressively spend more time in position as I get used to it.

Thought you weren't doing the Mersey Roads ?

I wasn't going to. But I've decided as I set such an easy to beat target last year I need to do it properly this time, hence setting up the TT bike on the trainer.

I was also not going to ride the Mille Pennines.

Will ride the WCA 12h again in June and I'm also looking at what I can get to as far as 25, 50 and 100 mile events go while also riding an SR and crewing in an 8 in at least one regatta.

Something will probably have to give - possibly my sanity.

Re: Base training
« Reply #138 on: March 11, 2016, 01:45:26 pm »
I have two 'A' races this year. Mille Pennines Audax and Mersey Roads. I'll train in both positions. Tomorrow's 10 is a 'C' race.

When training on the TT bike rather than reduce the intensity of the workout I've done what TR advise which is to progressively spend more time in position as I get used to it.

Thought you weren't doing the Mersey Roads ?

I wasn't going to. But I've decided as I set such an easy to beat target last year I need to do it properly this time, hence setting up the TT bike on the trainer.

I was also not going to ride the Mille Pennines.

Will ride the WCA 12h again in June and I'm also looking at what I can get to as far as 25, 50 and 100 mile events go while also riding an SR and crewing in an 8 in at least one regatta.

Something will probably have to give - possibly my sanity.

Enjoy - I had a good year last year - my 2nd proper year of riding TTs, but this year is falling apart.   I might not make the Mersey unless I can get my shit together.

Re: Base training
« Reply #139 on: March 11, 2016, 07:00:26 pm »
I have decided to give the mersey 24 a go.  I have the TT bike built from bits sourced off eBay but properly set up and fitted.  I know I can ride for 24 hours and can do a sub 24 hour 400 on the road bike.  My age related target is 319 miles or 315.94 a week later which gives me 510km.  at 4 hours off the bike I have to average 25.52 per hour.  Less time off the bike gives me more km or a lower speed.

My club has no record for the 24 at all so I could take all age group records.  We also do not keep a tally, are non racing and do not have an awards dinner! oh well.

I will be haunting the mersey posts and must head out soon to have a look.  At the moment I have done 2 hours in tuck position and hope to increase that at the weekend.


Re: Base training
« Reply #140 on: March 14, 2016, 01:06:33 pm »
The whole point of setting up one’s TT bike on the turbo is to simulate a TT. Do everything one would do when riding a TT. That means STAYING in racing position right up to the finish line.

If one starts to struggle, one’s tactics were incorrect.

Re: Base training
« Reply #141 on: March 14, 2016, 01:21:13 pm »
The whole point of setting up one’s TT bike on the turbo is to simulate a TT. Do everything one would do when riding a TT. That means STAYING in racing position right up to the finish line.

If one starts to struggle, one’s tactics were incorrect.

Do you go round roundabouts in the TT position ?

I'm training for 50s through to 24hrs.   Sitting up for drinks, food & stretches is part of these events.

There's a difference between spending MOST of your time in position and ALL of your time in position.

Re: Base training
« Reply #142 on: March 14, 2016, 02:18:22 pm »
I said it was an argument. I'm psychic.

Sitting up for the brake levers and sippng is necessary, I admit, but it doesn't need specific training. ALL TRAINING should be done in the 'operational mode' according to the purpose of the bicycle.


simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #143 on: March 14, 2016, 02:33:00 pm »
Outdoors in a crosswind.

Or in the case of Saturday on an undulating course where I was under-geared on the descents and quite a lot slower than in the last 10 I did last year, despite having spent more time training in TT position. Probably need to go to an >80 inch gear.

On Sunday I was training for The Dean by riding a hilly course on fixed. But I am considering riding The Dean on gears. Will probably be able to cope with the change.


Re: Base training
« Reply #144 on: March 14, 2016, 03:21:42 pm »
Outdoors in a crosswind.

Or in the case of Saturday on an undulating course where I was under-geared on the descents and quite a lot slower than in the last 10 I did last year, despite having spent more time training in TT position. Probably need to go to an >80 inch gear.

On Sunday I was training for The Dean by riding a hilly course on fixed. But I am considering riding The Dean on gears. Will probably be able to cope with the change.

I did my first TTs on 80", but moved up to 88" last year - it was good up to 30mph on Dual Carriageways, but a little wobbly over that.   I'm buying chainrings this year so I can use 90" or 92".

Re: Base training
« Reply #145 on: March 15, 2016, 06:36:07 am »
Outdoors in a crosswind.

Or in the case of Saturday on an undulating course where I was under-geared on the descents and quite a lot slower than in the last 10 I did last year, despite having spent more time training in TT position. Probably need to go to an >80 inch gear.

On Sunday I was training for The Dean by riding a hilly course on fixed. But I am considering riding The Dean on gears. Will probably be able to cope with the change.

I did my first TTs on 80", but moved up to 88" last year - it was good up to 30mph on Dual Carriageways, but a little wobbly over that.   I'm buying chainrings this year so I can use 90" or 92".

 :o  I spend most of my TT in 108". It goes up to 117 and then 128 on downhills. 30mph is 80 rpm in top, 99 rpm in 108". 400 Watts,,,  Cruzin'.  :thumbsup:

I tell lies. The 80 rpm stomping sprint in 128" is the final 300 metres of slightly downhill to the finish line,,,   ;)

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #146 on: March 17, 2016, 12:38:00 pm »
The base phase is done now. I'm riding The Dean this weekend so I'm having an easy-ish week this week, and probably an easy week next week, before repeating the FTP test to start the build phase.

Doing the same or similar work-out I have 5W more average power (because of the last FTP test) with 7bpm lower HR. So my next FTP test should show an increase.

Doing intervals that previously showed significant cardiac drift across the interval, I see heart rate stabilising. In fact comparing Carillon from January with Carillon 45 (slightly time-crunched version) my HR at the end of the final interval was 16bpm lower than in January for a similar work-out.

Next phase will be "sustainable power build". So some more demanding threshold and tempo work, but fewer workouts per week.

Re: Base training
« Reply #147 on: March 17, 2016, 01:45:50 pm »
The base phase is done now. I'm riding The Dean this weekend so I'm having an easy-ish week this week, and probably an easy week next week, before repeating the FTP test to start the build phase.

Doing the same or similar work-out I have 5W more average power (because of the last FTP test) with 7bpm lower HR. So my next FTP test should show an increase.

Doing intervals that previously showed significant cardiac drift across the interval, I see heart rate stabilising. In fact comparing Carillon from January with Carillon 45 (slightly time-crunched version) my HR at the end of the final interval was 16bpm lower than in January for a similar work-out.

Next phase will be "sustainable power build". So some more demanding threshold and tempo work, but fewer workouts per week.

Was that a 'sub-maximal' RPE based test?
More Watts for less HR = increased VO2 uptake.  :thumbsup:

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Base training
« Reply #148 on: March 17, 2016, 02:25:44 pm »
i admire your discipline simonp, i have to raise my own game too! :)

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #149 on: March 17, 2016, 03:15:38 pm »
The base phase is done now. I'm riding The Dean this weekend so I'm having an easy-ish week this week, and probably an easy week next week, before repeating the FTP test to start the build phase.

Doing the same or similar work-out I have 5W more average power (because of the last FTP test) with 7bpm lower HR. So my next FTP test should show an increase.

Doing intervals that previously showed significant cardiac drift across the interval, I see heart rate stabilising. In fact comparing Carillon from January with Carillon 45 (slightly time-crunched version) my HR at the end of the final interval was 16bpm lower than in January for a similar work-out.

Next phase will be "sustainable power build". So some more demanding threshold and tempo work, but fewer workouts per week.

Was that a 'sub-maximal' RPE based test?
More Watts for less HR = increased VO2 uptake.  :thumbsup:

No, just a particular work-out. 'Carter' from TrainerRoad.

This morning:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3421280-carter

31st January:

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3078982-carter

It's 45 minutes of endurance work. The 31st January one was the last work-out before my most recent test. NP was 170W, average HR 137

Same drill this morning, NP was 175W, average HR 130.

For the sweet-spot work, I did Carillon (1h of sweet-spot intervals) on 12th January with average HR of 150 and Max HR 176.

Last night was Carillon 45 with average HR 143 and max HR of 161.

I should be looking for +5W on FTP, at least.