Author Topic: Base training  (Read 165185 times)

rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #2100 on: December 21, 2020, 07:52:41 am »
My 53:45 PB in 2019 on a DC near Norwich must be 250w ish ? I did get my CDA down to 0.2.

Perhaps we should move this to the TT thread ?

Re: Base training
« Reply #2101 on: December 21, 2020, 09:22:26 am »
This should be in the TT thread.  It's all so course/position/equipment/conditions dependant.  I've not done a 25, but I've done quite a few 10s averaging over 220W, and I've only been under 27 minutes once (229W, H10/17R)! I suspect a normalised power of 244W might have been my best power figure for a 10 in the last couple of years - got me a 27:11!

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Base training
« Reply #2102 on: December 26, 2020, 04:27:53 pm »
by doing a festive 500 i have put two weeks worth of base training into one ride. this wouldn't be endorsed by coaches, but sometimes it's fun to do the things that are out-there.


rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #2103 on: December 26, 2020, 05:11:44 pm »
My coach has got used to me clearing off for long rides without warning.  Sometimes you can’t plan for those days when the weather looks Ok and you set off at first light.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2104 on: December 26, 2020, 05:39:08 pm »
This year has been a good year for trying different things. It’s not like anything got impacted if it had a detrimental effect.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2105 on: December 26, 2020, 06:21:42 pm »
This year has been a good year for trying different things.

Indeed.  I'd never even thought of getting a smart trainer until this March.  I'm now spending several hours a week doing TrainerRoad intervals on the Kickr and really enjoying it. I doubt I'd ever have done a structured training plan without the national lockdown. 

Whether this will be reflected in improvements in road speed/endurance remains to be seen, but as you say it's certainly something different.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2106 on: December 27, 2020, 08:11:46 pm »
Well I was 2 workouts away from finishing week 5 of base 2 when I bashed my heal after a front wheel mtb tuck yesterday  :'(
Hairline fracture of the upper tibia currently strapped up in a sort of cricket pad until a virtual fracture clinic in the week :facepalm:
Currently more worried about work but hopefully be back on it in a month or two   ::-)

simonp

Re: Base training
« Reply #2107 on: December 27, 2020, 09:34:44 pm »
Oh bugger. Heal well.

I had two days off over Christmas but that weakness is done now and I was back on it with Hunter -2 tonight. 2h SS intervals workout, total 1h in zone.

Have stopped TB HV 3 it seemed too much jump in volume and intensity from 2. So back to SSB 1. But I’m going to do long z2 rides and might ditch the threshold work.

rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #2108 on: December 29, 2020, 08:04:49 pm »
commuting* is good for base miles, i used to have 7.5-8hrs of z1-2 "training" while commuting each week. add a couple of higher intensity rides/workouts and it's a good recipe to stay fit.

this video talks about base training, done "the right way": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OsXh6wyUlR8

* one of the best things about it is consistency

Agreed.  I used to have 10hrs per week of commuting with a couple of turbo sessions and then a long road ride once a week.  I now live further from work so it’s 2h30 each way.  At the moment I’m doing this on a Tuesday and a Thursday and turboing Mon/Wed/Fri.  I’ll still do a long ride on Saturday.   It should give me roughly the same weekly hours but it’s a bit lumpy.   It’s only week 1 so I’ll review after a few weeks.

That didn’t go too well.  I think I was getting a bit tired a bit quickly.  I spent a lot of last week eating and sleeping, so I’m due a rethink.  A lot of my road miles were being done in the dark which I think had an effect.

I think going to the office for at least January is unlikely.  I have been riding in my ‘lunch break’ and the daylight is helping.  I’ll up the turbo hours I think to improve the quality.

My earliest TT will be early May so 4 months to get myself up to speed.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2109 on: December 30, 2020, 05:19:55 pm »
I have joined the fold.

My fitness had reached an all time low, I stopped Audaxing for a while and with no commuting anymore I was overweight and no where near active enough. Lockdown gave me a kick up the arse and Ive started riding again, lost a few stone and managed to drag myself round a late season SR.

I have just finished my first block of training on Trainer Road last week and am in the recovery week. Did Sweet Spot Base 1 - Low Volume but have added in extra rides outside each week to add some extra traditional base miles of 4-12 hours a week on top of that. I had a false start to a block at the start of November and found the initial sweet spot work incredibly hard, but it turned out I was quite unwell, I restarted the block after some rest and all went well.

I have also done the Festive 500 (Pending 9km of utilitarian riding tomorrow) through the back end of week 5 and into this week which is my designated recovery week. Will retest my FTP at the start of next week as a base line for the next block. I definitely feel improvement within myself having done this consistent block of training, I have never done anything of this nature and the initial introduction to sustained sweet spot and over-unders around threshold gives me a fairly good indication of exactly how little time I spend around threshold when out riding.

I have also been playing around with aerobars and my position on the bike throughout which is not ideal, I tested my FTP when upright before I was ill and now my hip angle is more closed so when I retest there may not be a big change but that wont deter me. Hoping to keep the going with the intervals and see where it takes my riding.

I am planning on progressing the sessions to a mid-volume plan and cutting back a bit of outside riding for a block due to the limited options for quality riding in London. My current thoughts are that there is not sufficient increase in the Time in Zone built into the Trainer Road Plans for sweet spot. I might adapt a Low Volume plan in the future and add in longer Sweet Spot Progressions with less rest as I feel they will be more beneficial for me if I want to target longer TT's.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2110 on: January 01, 2021, 09:42:45 pm »
I started my '20/'21 season's TrainerRoad-based training plan 2 1/2 months ago, taking my first ramp test for over 12 months. During the past year, despite having followed a TR plan for nearly all of it, I'd just left my FTP at the same value, a value which was quite a bit lower than the year-ago tested value because I wanted an easier time in TR! The result was that I did a year of "maintenance", which was OK considering Covid.

After 3 years of TR I've zeroed in on doing "just" low volume plans, but focusing on quality and trying to be very well recovered for harder sessions so I can complete workouts with high compliance. The TR stuff can be augmented or very occasionally replaced by outdoor rides (inc group rides) from time to time, but since mid-Oct through until the Spring, the focus will be very much on indoor workouts and following the plan.

I also run, once or maybe twice per week, keeping the pace more to endurance/tempo level rather than caning it so as not to compromise recovery (fast runs beat me up a lot compared to steadier ones). Also, I'm doing upper body weights - no leg work - twice per week. The running and weights are for general well-being, aimed at keeping me more well-rounded and robust health-wise than just riding a bike all the time. It's also more interesting for me: I find that too much time on the bike, week after week, is quite boring for me, whether indoor or outdoors, but we're all different so each to their own. No criticism of anyone else's approach intended.

My so-called "schedule" also means that every month I interrupt the TR plan for a week-to-10-days, where I do more running and longer, steadier outdoor rides, geared towards building muscular endurance.

My target event was June '21, now Sep '21 if the world co-operates.

I'm not going to do many ramp tests between now and then, but will manually adjust (raise, ideally!) FTP as I feel progress is made across the plan. I'm currently at 255w, 3.65w/kg. My goal is primary a process goal, so the FTP will just be whatever it is, but I'd hope for 260, and 265 would be nice. So, no great uplift being aimed for by me.

My FTP now is roughly where it was a year ago, but I feel that I've made quite a lot of progress in that time that FTP doesn't capture. I feel that muscular endurance is improved and I recover faster, more easily able to string back-to-back days together. Some days, like today, I do both a 10k run and an endurance turbo session, and it seems fine. I've also set power records across a bunch of shorter duration (VO2mac-type) timeframes. Maybe down the line, these non-FTP, mainly unmeasured, improvements will be transformed into a decent FTP bump, which would be a pleasant bonus.

Good luck to everyone in the season ahead, whatever your goals. May you largely dodge injury and illness(!) and may your completed TSS plots slope progressively upwards and to the right  ;)


Re: Base training
« Reply #2111 on: January 01, 2021, 09:52:14 pm »
One thing I failed to mention: being on the LV plan, I commonly tack-on 15min or occasionally 30 min endurance level to the end of each TR workout, adding up to one hour's extra endurance work per week.

NB I'm using a Neo trainer, and as I'm primarily training for climbing hills and mountains I do all significant work intervals in a pretty low gear (low kinetic energy in the flywheel) to better simulate climbing pedal action dynamics and muscle recruitment. I switch to a big gear for all recovery intervals and for the extra tacked-on endurance work that I mentioned above, to better simulate cruising along on the flat. Specificity etc.

rob

Re: Base training
« Reply #2112 on: January 04, 2021, 08:46:33 am »
One thing I failed to mention: being on the LV plan, I commonly tack-on 15min or occasionally 30 min endurance level to the end of each TR workout, adding up to one hour's extra endurance work per week.

My coach often puts a note saying you can do an extra 20-30mins zone 2 at the end of a session 'if you feel like it'.   It's quite handy if I haven't been out on the road as much as I would have liked.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2113 on: January 04, 2021, 03:16:12 pm »
One thing I failed to mention: being on the LV plan, I commonly tack-on 15min or occasionally 30 min endurance level to the end of each TR workout, adding up to one hour's extra endurance work per week.

My coach often puts a note saying you can do an extra 20-30mins zone 2 at the end of a session 'if you feel like it'.   It's quite handy if I haven't been out on the road as much as I would have liked.

That's me. Across these cold months when I get to do hardly any road riding and so little steady work, I try these add-ons at the end of most workouts. No matter how grim the workout, after a few mins recovery I can always manage 15mins+ in Z2 watching Netflix or Youtube vids etc.

Whether there's much benefit of this I've no way of knowing - very modest, at best, I'd have guessed - but even if it's just psychological that's better than nothing   ;D

Re: Base training
« Reply #2114 on: January 19, 2021, 03:34:19 pm »
After my first 3 solid months on Trainer Road (sweet spot base MV x 2) my ramp test today gave an FTP of 250 (3.64 w/kg).  It's historically been around 220 for the last several years without structured training i.e. just rides and a blast on the spin bike in the gym twice a week.  Unfortunately this now means a world of pain for the next TR plan (sustained power build - medium volume).

Interestingly I also found my max HR is significantly higher than I previously thought - 180 as opposed to the 175 I've never surpassed before, on or off road  :o

Re: Base training
« Reply #2115 on: January 27, 2021, 09:49:45 am »
Nice 30w boost ahead of the build phase. Enjoy those first few sessions of adapting. Did the increase come in one big jump or was it incremental over the two build phases?

Im in week 4 of Sweet Spot Base mid volume currently so will re assess in a few weeks. Im in a very similar position with no structured training before this so hoping to make some early easy gains. Certainly feeling much stronger for the work and mentally able to hold higher power for longer.

Performance gains aside it is providing some much needed structure, routine and positivity amidst the chaos.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2116 on: January 27, 2021, 11:35:04 am »
Er.. enjoying wouldn't be the word I'd use for the build phase.  I "failed" my first workout at the end of week 1 - Red Lake +8.  It looked like a monster on paper but I thought TR must know best.  I was dying by the end of the 3rd interval so lowered the intensity to 95% for the last two and just about finished but I was a mess afterwards.  Yesterday I had Baird +6 and that looked equally improbable so I swapped it for a less taxing version.

It's the VO2max workouts that kill me.  I've always been happy with endurance, sweet-spot and threshold (years of audax  :D), but as I don't race and there's no VO2max in the SSB1, I'm totally unprepared for that kind of effort.  I'm going to struggle on in the hope things improve.  Now I've endured the shame of lowering intensity once It'll be easier to do it again if needs be.

The FTP increases were incremental over the 3 months of base so looked realistic, but maybe I over-tested (on the last one in particular).  The only way to find out is to plough on and see what happens.  If it all gets too much I can lower FTP.  Im not too bothered.  As you say, the main thing is it gives you some structure and focus. 

Re: Base training
« Reply #2117 on: January 27, 2021, 01:48:58 pm »
Just had a look at what is to come in the weeks ahead.

From your message Im not clear. Did you do SSB 1 and then SSB 2? Or repeat SSB 1 twice? If the latter it is an even bigger leap for your body.

Im currently doing SSB 2 after completing SSB 1. SSB 2 has definitely introduced more VO2 Max workouts and more above threshold work into each week. The time in each zone progressing too. Those are certainly the ones I have found more challenging, getting through them all to this point but aware they are quite short at the minute. The prospect of the jump to 6 minutes at Vo2 sounds daunting, but if its incremental it becomes more realistic.

Im in a similar position of lots of Audax riding in my past so that steady state power on tired legs feels almost strangely comforting. Vo2 Max, less so....

Re: Base training
« Reply #2118 on: January 27, 2021, 03:34:35 pm »
I did SSB1 x 2.  That was my mistake I think  ::-)  Looking through the plans I missed SSB2 completely.  So yes, going straight into 5 x 6m intervals at VO2max was something of a shock, particularly on the back of a 10w FTP bump.

Now that I'm here I think I'll stick with it and adjust intensity / swap workouts / lower FTP as seems appropriate.  Presumably it will achieve the roughly the same results as reverting to SSB2.

However, I want to try and avoid experiencing a sense of dread every time I descend to the pain cave for a session.  Apparently it's meant to be fun  ;D

EDIT:  Actually, on second thoughts I think I'll ditch the power build plan and revert to SSB2.  Just had a look and the VO2 stuff looks a lot more manageable.  Hopefully that will better prepare me for the build phase. Not much point in a plan if you have to alter and dodge lots of the sessions.

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Base training
« Reply #2119 on: January 27, 2021, 06:20:29 pm »
going from ssb1 to build is a big step, especially if one is not used to vo2 workouts. i could barely manage the build after completing ssb2 - it's a tough plan! a lot of suffering, but the gains were big too (at least for me).

Re: Base training
« Reply #2120 on: January 28, 2021, 10:14:29 am »
I've just started Sustained Power Build and, yesterday, I binned the first set of intervals which was unders and overs.

I knew they would be hard, so I had already dialled the level down by 5%, but it wasn't enough and I was feeling laboured during the warm-up.  I've had three weeks off, so I expect FTP will have slid, but would have been hard anyway.

My heart wasn't in it so I went out and did a hilly local loop instead, which should have similar training impact and was a lot more enjoyable. 

I'll try the other intervals but, if they are a bit much, I'll either dial down more, or swap them out for outside rides of similar tempo.  I don't have a problem with dialling down the intensity during an interval but, if I know it is going to be hard, I'd rather dial it down by the most I think I'll need and potentially nudge it up if I have taken it down by too much. 

Re: Base training
« Reply #2121 on: January 28, 2021, 01:57:21 pm »
Just done first session of SSB2 (MV) - Ebbetts.  Sweetspot with very short sprints. Much more manageable and actually fun.  Rather like getting away at the lights when commuting racing!

Hopefully if I can embed the new higher FTP then I'll be better prepared for a build phase.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2122 on: January 29, 2021, 09:40:11 pm »
Done the second set of Build intervals.. It was 5x6 at something like 108% of threshold.
did them outside and managed them, although power was 3-4% down. They were pretty hard but good to get back on the programme.
tomorrow is 3x20. I expect I'll need to do those outside too.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2123 on: January 29, 2021, 10:15:51 pm »
Done the second set of Build intervals.. It was 5x6 at something like 108% of threshold.
did them outside and managed them, although power was 3-4% down. They were pretty hard but good to get back on the programme.
tomorrow is 3x20. I expect I'll need to do those outside too.

Red Lake +8?  That's what persuaded me to revert to SSB2  ;D

How do you do the outside workouts - on the road?

Re: Base training
« Reply #2124 on: January 30, 2021, 08:54:48 am »
Done the second set of Build intervals.. It was 5x6 at something like 108% of threshold.
did them outside and managed them, although power was 3-4% down. They were pretty hard but good to get back on the programme.
tomorrow is 3x20. I expect I'll need to do those outside too.

Red Lake +8?  That's what persuaded me to revert to SSB2  ;D

How do you do the outside workouts - on the road?

Yes. In West London the best place is Richmond Park. There are some reasonably flat bits which are ok for intervals, and you can finish going up a hill. But if the park was much busier than it was yesterday afternoon, it wouldn't be viable.
I really don't fancy intervals at sweet spot or higher that last over 5 minutes on a turbo.