Author Topic: Base training  (Read 132438 times)

simonp

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Re: Base training
« Reply #100 on: February 25, 2016, 11:23:55 am »
If you read the in-workout instructions in the TrainerRoad workouts they advise either reducing the intensity setting a bit or back-pedalling for a few seconds to take a short breather.

With an electronic trainer it's easier to stay on target. I've only come up short twice so far, and I just had to knock down the intensity a little to complete the session.


Re: Base training
« Reply #101 on: February 25, 2016, 11:36:50 am »
Running mate of mine sent me a good article that said you should always complete the intended duration even if you back off a bit.   

That's the one big problem with the automatic control, you can't back off :(  That's balanced against the rapid and accurate changes in cadence and power that are possible. If you drop cadence, you end up grinding out the same power, best approach is to lock in the best pedalling you can and hold to the same cadence. In the last segment of Sufferfest Angels you have the pleasure of short 105 cadence bursts over 80/90 targets, maybe if I had ignored them I could have finished.

I would possibly have switched to resistance, but as I was a messy sweaty puddle by then I couldn't have operated the touchpad on the laptop anyhow.

ETA as simonp says you CAN back off but you have to be able to control the 'puter

simonp

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Re: Base training
« Reply #102 on: February 25, 2016, 11:47:37 am »
I've got quite a nice setup now since buying the Wahoo fitness desk. It's a standing desk intended to be used with a bike or trainer. There's a slot around the edge to put your phone or tablet into. So I have TrainerRoad on the iPhone and Netflix on the iPad. If needed I can reach either screen to change something. I have even taken screenshots of workouts while riding and posted them to Facebook, and replied to comments while still working. During the rest intervals natch.

The TrainerRoad plans seem to be well structured which means the workouts are tough but I can complete them.

Re: Base training
« Reply #103 on: February 25, 2016, 11:59:44 am »
I'm still using cadence on my fixed and try to keep the same resistance level.   I keep an eye on effort using RPE and HR.   Congratulations to anyone that can absorb that much data whilst training.   I'm a bit of a luddite.

Putting a TV back in the garage has helped the longer sessions.

simonp

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Re: Base training
« Reply #104 on: February 28, 2016, 06:15:14 pm »
I removed the 10 speed cassette from the kickr last night and fitted a single sprocket plus spacers for the 42mm chain line. Got the fixed Audax bike on there and it seems to work. I repeated last Saturday's over unders as I didn't fancy high force work. I already did a 90 minute session at the rowing club so it was harder than last weekend, but I survived. Fixed bike fits better.

Today I did a 2h15 endurance ride session. Due to the high calorie deficit yesterday I was hungry before starting so had peanut butter on toast as well as my usual couple of coffees. That wasn't enough and 90 minutes in I had a break and got some coffee, a banana and a gel. Having eaten again, I'm still down about 1500 calories for the day so will make sure I eat well tonight.

Tomorrow is a rest day and after 5h of mostly fairly demanding training, I need it.

Re: Base training
« Reply #105 on: March 01, 2016, 06:41:16 am »
So what gear length was your fixed set-up?

IIRC, turbos and ergometers are for power work that can't be done on the open road safely. For burning calories, riding an old hack in the rain is best.  :thumbsup:

simonp

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Re: Base training
« Reply #106 on: March 01, 2016, 11:04:40 am »
The gearing is 47/18 on the turbo set up. The typical gearing I use on an Audax is either 47/19 or 47/18.

I'm riding the Tewekesbury 200k this weekend, so will get some outdoor riding in then.

Re: Base training
« Reply #107 on: March 01, 2016, 12:17:54 pm »
"70 inches" to us olduns.

My fixed is 60" ( 42 x 18 on 26" wheel ). In reality, the Conti 26 x 1.125 is 24.1" diameter, which gives a 56" gear.
As a coincidence, that's the height of my Sturnal notch, and the HighBike wheel size that would be prescribed.

simonp

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Re: Base training
« Reply #108 on: March 01, 2016, 01:43:34 pm »
Been thinking about what it would take to get my FTP/kg to 4.

At my current weight, I'd need to get my FTP up from the month-ago test of 259W to 310W. That seems like a big gap.

If I got my weight back down to 72kg, then I'd need to hit 288W FTP. In principle that looks a lot more likely, but how much will losing 5kg cost me?

Re: Base training
« Reply #109 on: March 01, 2016, 02:15:44 pm »
The gearing is 47/18 on the turbo set up. The typical gearing I use on an Audax is either 47/19 or 47/18.

I'm riding the Tewekesbury 200k this weekend, so will get some outdoor riding in then.

I've got 48*17 on the turbo.   This has resulted in a lot of work in the 80-85RPM range over the Winter using the second resistance setting.   The aim was to increase my power at lower revs as I struggled last year into the wind and up steady drags.   I also increase the gear on my heavy commuter to 84".

I think this has put a bit of strain on me as I have aches and pains in tendons that I previously haven't struggled with.    I did last night's 2hr session on resistance setting 1, which just uses the fluid and no magnetic resistance so had a higher cadence for a lower HR.    I'm going to play with this for the next few weeks and try to spin a bit more.

I entered my first TTs (in April) yesterday so that will be the first test of the year.

Re: Base training
« Reply #110 on: March 01, 2016, 06:57:56 pm »
I just need to share!!  since my flu in january and changing to LCHF diet I have really noticed my lack of grunt.  Endurance is coming but sprinting and anything but tempo work has been out of the question.  Tonight though 10 minute warm up on the turbo then 30 single leg squats  20 x and 10x plus 20x and 10x sliding single leg squats per legwhilst wearing my 20kg weight vest.

feels so amazing to be getting back to where i was before all this.

simonp

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Re: Base training
« Reply #111 on: March 01, 2016, 07:12:29 pm »
Sounds like some adaptation.

I'm riding 200k this weekend, Bristol Uni 10 the weekend after that, and the following weekend is The Dean. My FTP is as high as it was just before PBP - will be interesting to see how I get on.

About to go and do a vo2max workout.

Re: Base training
« Reply #112 on: March 02, 2016, 10:30:45 am »
Anyone used one of the sufferfest videos for inspiration?
I'm using music but still it's kinda boring doing my 3 x 10 mins intervals @ at.
Thinking one of the endurance or base vids playing on a tablet while on the gym bike may help as I can alter the resistance on manual to simulate the difference in effort.

Just wondered what the consensus is regarding them?
Thanks

Re: Base training
« Reply #113 on: March 02, 2016, 10:34:57 am »
I like the Sufferfest vids, the music, the vids, the commentary, for me it does keep boredom at bay. They're doing an app version now that gives you access to all the vids for a sub - don't know what it is like. Works best on an erg controlled trainer using Trainer Roads, IMO, as it removes the need to alter the resistance

simonp

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Re: Base training
« Reply #114 on: March 02, 2016, 11:29:15 am »
About to go and do a vo2max workout.

Well that was tough.

Combination of fatigue, and the fact this is the highest intensity I've had to do this work-out at (because my FTP is higher). During the second last interval I thought there was no way I'd complete the final, so I dropped the intensity to 95% during the recovery. But I recovered ok, and decided not to be beaten, so put it back to 100%, and made it.

I put Saturday's MoTD on iPlayer for most of the workout, but had some music on for the final interval after that finished. Sat down for a few minutes after my shower, and when I got up, I nearly fell over.

Re: Base training
« Reply #115 on: March 02, 2016, 12:27:05 pm »
I like the Sufferfest vids, the music, the vids, the commentary, for me it does keep boredom at bay. They're doing an app version now that gives you access to all the vids for a sub - don't know what it is like. Works best on an erg controlled trainer using Trainer Roads, IMO, as it removes the need to alter the resistance

Thanks for the reply Ham, might just dip a toe in. Agreed if Trainer Roads etc alters resistance in line with the vid to give a feeling of the workout/climbs, that would be great, not there though - yet.

Cheers

Re: Base training
« Reply #116 on: March 02, 2016, 12:38:16 pm »
I like the Sufferfest vids, the music, the vids, the commentary, for me it does keep boredom at bay. They're doing an app version now that gives you access to all the vids for a sub - don't know what it is like. Works best on an erg controlled trainer using Trainer Roads, IMO, as it removes the need to alter the resistance

Thanks for the reply Ham, might just dip a toe in. Agreed if Trainer Roads etc alters resistance in line with the vid to give a feeling of the workout/climbs, that would be great, not there though - yet.

Cheers

If you have a controllable trainer it is there - either via the app or Trainer Roads


Re: Base training
« Reply #117 on: March 02, 2016, 01:10:34 pm »
There are a number of videos out there but IMO the sufferfest ones offer the best combination of music, humour and fun.  They should especially appeal to those of us who are following the Joe Friel advice about power training and hard intervals!

They started out as pure racing videos but 2 recent ones have been done with the Col collective and feature real countryside and are again IMO less aggressive and more audax style.

You can use the videos in 4 ways:

the video plays and you pedal harder or easier on a scale from 1-10, 1 I have never seen  and 10 is death in 30 seconds. Fairly hard to gauge and reproducibility is difficult.

The video plays and you monitor your heart rate on a garmin or similar.  problem is that Heart rate lags power and so you can get to the end of a 30 second sprint and your Heart rate barely reaches the limit and then peaks 5 seconds into the rest interval

Most turbos and a computer:  using either trainerroad or the sufferfest app and an ANT+ USB stick you record your heart rate, cadence and wheel rpm.  You have your turbo set at a single specified resistance which has been tested by trainerroad, etc.  The computer can then from cadence, rpm and resistance work out virtual power.  This changes almost instantaneously and allows very accurate intervals.  You change the difficulty of the workout by altering your gears.  So for example I knew on my old trainer that recovery intervals at level 2 was small ring and next to largest cog at a cadence of 85-90.  FTP was either little ring and 14 cog  at 90 or a bit smaller at 100 cadence.  A grind at 60rpm would need big ring and so on.  Initially there is some hunting around to get the right settings.  It is ideal if you can do the hard interval in big ring and recovery in little ring without changing the cassette position as it allows you to transition from recovery to interval very fast.

There are now 5-7 turbos which will talk to the app, either trainerroad or sufferfest.  The first was the Wahoo kickr, I think the second was the Tacx Neo and now there are several more.  With these the computer tells the turbo to produce 250W.  If you pedal at the cadence specified of 90rpm this will be relatively easy (I lie).  If however you have a mid interval fail and your cadence drops to 10 then instead of producing 250W/90 power per revolution you are left producing 250/10 power per revolution which can be soul destroying!  With this system you generally leave the bike in a single gear and the turbo changes the resistance for you. 

I think people vary. I love my new tacx Neo as it is easier to let the power drop with the older system but these turbos cost an arm and a leg.  They will measure cadence as well but I found the cadence side poor and added a cadence sensor as well.

I hope this helps

Re: Base training
« Reply #118 on: March 02, 2016, 03:23:22 pm »
@Ham Sorry I meant I'm not quite ready for a trainer, but considering one for next winter.

@Chrisbainbridge, I quite like the idea of the col collective, just looking for something to break up the boredom on the gym bike. I'd definitely try to follow the workouts albeit I would have to work out the relative settings as I go along with the inevitable HR lag as you allude to. I interpret the sclae from 1-10 as loosely being my heart rate range with 7.5 my anearobic threshold (which keeps going up and making me try even harder to maintain), correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption. As I've stated to Ham I'm looking to maybe getting a trainer for next winter as I kinda like the idea of the trainer altering the resistance to the workout. A question about this is does the app take into account your individual ftp as I'm not yet up to providing 240W for more than a few seconds, currently doing 182W for each 10 min interval with spasma of 200+W but looking to break through the 200W barrier soon.

Re: Base training
« Reply #119 on: March 02, 2016, 03:37:26 pm »
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?

simonp

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Re: Base training
« Reply #120 on: March 02, 2016, 03:52:11 pm »
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?

I don't.

Last night I wasn't getting much below 140 in the recoveries and then having to go again.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3315200-solomons


Re: Base training
« Reply #121 on: March 02, 2016, 03:54:19 pm »
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?

I don't.

Last night I wasn't getting much below 140 in the recoveries and then having to go again.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3315200-solomons

Not just me then. here's my results. http://hub.wattbike.com/sefi/session/78ae0b45198690946bade72b7f5ef135 Hopefully you can see that.

Re: Base training
« Reply #122 on: March 02, 2016, 03:57:20 pm »
John, you tell the program your FTP at the beginning.  Then as you go on there is the opportunity to do a FTP test which is one of the least enjoyable things ever done on a bike!  if it has gone up the computer will then change the setting to make you suffer even more.  I think it was designed in one of Dante's deeper circles of Hell!

Re: Base training
« Reply #123 on: March 02, 2016, 04:02:53 pm »
John, you tell the program your FTP at the beginning.  Then as you go on there is the opportunity to do a FTP test which is one of the least enjoyable things ever done on a bike!  if it has gone up the computer will then change the setting to make you suffer even more.  I think it was designed in one of Dante's deeper circles of Hell!
   ;D

simonp

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Re: Base training
« Reply #124 on: March 02, 2016, 04:10:00 pm »
During the interval trainings on my wattbike, I find it hard to get my heart rate to go from very high during a 90/60/30 second interval to a moderate target of 110bpm for a minute of recovery before starting the next section of intervals. How do one get their HR to come down quickly?

I don't.

Last night I wasn't getting much below 140 in the recoveries and then having to go again.

https://www.trainerroad.com/cycling/rides/3315200-solomons

Not just me then. here's my results. http://hub.wattbike.com/sefi/session/78ae0b45198690946bade72b7f5ef135 Hopefully you can see that.

I was supposed to be doing 103W in my recoveries. Your power is creeping up to over 150W at the end of some of the earlier recoveries. I think you probably want to be taking it easier there. The shorter intervals have less recovery time, in those you'd not expect HR to drop as much.

I saw similar in this workout; HR only dropping as low as 157 in the final recovery; and only going as high as 170 during the efforts. Heart rate takes longer than that to respond to change in effort anyway so the intervals or recoveries are ending before HR stabilises.