Author Topic: Base training  (Read 119004 times)

Re: Base training
« Reply #1600 on: April 30, 2019, 08:49:56 pm »
Thanks - interesting discussion.  Good to see other people having similar issues and what they do about it.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1601 on: April 30, 2019, 09:08:55 pm »
I will be back on turbo tomorrow after 14 days.  I've had the Easter Arrow and my PBP 300 in that time and wanted to be as rested as possible / didn't want to add any further fatigue.  Outdoor rides also during this time but nothing that was going to beat me up. As others have said important to manage your motivation in all of this. Got two solid weeks then my 400 comes up and then 600 two weeks after that. So they take priority as they get closer and any turbo work will just be to maintain fitness rather than try to increase it. I'd rather be rested and slightly less fit then fit but fatigued in the latter half of May.

One thing the turbo definitely doesn't help with is recalibrating the right fuelling tactics for me on my audaxes. To do that I need to get some long rides in and see what happens when I push the distance vs. Food / hydration equation then back off as I find the limits.   150-160km before eating is about my limit at the moment.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1602 on: April 30, 2019, 09:22:31 pm »
Thanks - interesting discussion.  Good to see other people having similar issues and what they do about it.

A lot of people think as they get older that they can't/shouldn't do the high intensity stuff. This is a mistake! Not training the high end is likely to accelerate its decline.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1603 on: April 30, 2019, 09:31:34 pm »
Thanks - interesting discussion.  Good to see other people having similar issues and what they do about it.

A lot of people think as they get older that they can't/shouldn't do the high intensity stuff. This is a mistake! Not training the high end is likely to accelerate its decline.

I’m still unconvinced that I really need a high end.  Coach seems to like me working there, though.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1604 on: May 01, 2019, 08:30:24 am »
Thanks - interesting discussion.  Good to see other people having similar issues and what they do about it.

A lot of people think as they get older that they can't/shouldn't do the high intensity stuff. This is a mistake! Not training the high end is likely to accelerate its decline.

I’m still unconvinced that I really need a high end.  Coach seems to like me working there, though.

This is interesting.  I'm in the same place - and I think I always have been, since I started TTing 10 years ago at least.  Compared to clubmates I've always been relatively better at longer distances.  And I've never trained for shorter distances.

Maybe what it actually means is that I just never achieved my potential at higher end stuff and have accelerated my decline!

CrazyEnglishTriathlete

  • Miles eaten don't satisfy hunger
  • Chartered accountant in 5 different decades
    • CET Ride Reports and Blogs
Re: Base training
« Reply #1605 on: May 01, 2019, 08:45:39 am »
Thanks - interesting discussion.  Good to see other people having similar issues and what they do about it.

A lot of people think as they get older that they can't/shouldn't do the high intensity stuff. This is a mistake! Not training the high end is likely to accelerate its decline.

I use my club runs for high intensity training.  There are younger fitter better riders than me in the club (not hard to find once you get the right side of 50) and so as we take on the many little hills in Hampshire I get plenty of high intensity intervals.  I will push myself harder in pursuit of a wheel than I will on a turbo.
Eddington Numbers 125 (imperial), 168 (metric) 518 (furlongs)  111 (nautical miles)

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1606 on: May 01, 2019, 09:21:48 am »
I've had plenty high intensity stuff in the last 4 years through rowing. Never got to the throwing up point on a bike but I've been close several times on the rowing machine in the last few years and have been heaving over the side of the boat during hard training sessions.

Part of that is being in a crew rather than riding or training as an individual, I think there's an extra motivational factor there.


Re: Base training
« Reply #1607 on: May 02, 2019, 09:04:10 am »
Today sucked. :( Was supposed to get a 1hr 15 ride this morning, but stayed in bed with the idea of doing a 45 minute one instead. Hauled myself out of bed, and got down into the garage, where my pedals wouldn't pair to my phone. I did the warmup just connected to the trainer, which was super hard. I rebooted my phone and the pedals connected OK, so I resumed the ride, but when I got to the first power interval it was much harder and my hip/lower abs hurt, so I binned it off.

I'm getting so fed up of the hib/ab issue.  Physio says that mobility and strength are OK, and says I should continue to ride (and also do some specific strengthening exercises). If I wasn't planning on doing some TTs over the next month I'd probably just ditch the plan and ride random workouts when I want to. I don't mind sticking to the plan if I see gains, but if not...

Re: Base training
« Reply #1608 on: May 05, 2019, 11:38:18 am »
Ramp test today. Ouch.
Up from 243 to 246.

...

I can't work out whether to be pleased that it's going well or frustrated it's not gone up more. I should probably focus on consistency and trying to get 300 ish TSS each week, but life keeps getting in the way.

I've just returned from a "recovery" week (aka eating pastries in Lisbon) and done my first test since early Jan: 246, up from 242 four months ago.

It appears upward progress is now glacial, and might soon peter out, at the low level of volume I'm prepared/able to do. Training over these past 4 months has gone very well: not been sick, followed the plan, swapping out for some longer outdoor rides when the sun shines, and TSS has been gently but steadily rising.

So, despite the very small FTP increase, I'm content with this, as it could be a lot worse, eg. injured, sick. For sure, I'd like to be making rapid improvements as I was one year ago, but that's not the reality, so no point in me crying over it, it's just the way it is!

I've started the Climbing Road Race plan, but increasing numbers of w/o's will hopefully get swapped for outdoor rides over the coming weeks. The goal is to hit 250 FTP by end of June, then ideally(!) reach towards 260 in September. The latter is probably a big ask, but one step at a time...

Re: Base training
« Reply #1609 on: May 05, 2019, 08:20:29 pm »
Is your current plateau your high point?
I hit 261 last June, but a month off with a broken foot dropped me down, and I've not got back up there again.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1610 on: May 06, 2019, 01:00:10 pm »
Is your current plateau your high point?
I hit 261 last June, but a month off with a broken foot dropped me down, and I've not got back up there again.

Yep, Saturday's test was the highest number I've reached, so I cannot complain.

I started TR early last year, and gained accurate trainer power measurement a few months later. Each of the handful of tests I've done since then have shown slight improvements, so the "plateau" is still sloping upwards, albeit ever so gently ;) Sweet Spot Base II + Sustained Power Build, both Low Vol, together banked me an extra 4w.

"Better than going backwards" is my 50 y.o. positive take on it.

It's still progress, which I don't take for granted. eg. my partner has had two separate calf injuries from running in the past 3 months, and is making no progress.


Re: Base training
« Reply #1611 on: May 06, 2019, 09:13:34 pm »
It's still progress is the best way of looking at it. I was very naively thinking that if I could put on 60W in 6 months last year, then starting around 240W in September, maybe I could be at 300W this summer. Now I'm just hoping that I can sort out my consistency and get a PR at some point this summer.
Last summer I did more volume (longish outside rides including team Time Trialing) and there has to be a limit to doing Low Volume, but I can only claim to approach it if I actually do it consistently I guess!

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1612 on: May 06, 2019, 10:32:44 pm »
Well I got round the Brevet Cymru 400k so I can't be hugely unfit.  300k next weekend and then one more PBP qualifier, and then I need to get some more speed in the legs for the PBP 80h limit.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1613 on: May 07, 2019, 03:56:10 pm »
Very light on the turbo the last few weeks as I work my way through my PBP qualifiers.

I'll have to say that my recovery from long efforts is taking longer this year.   I pushed very hard on Saturday's Lincolnshire Poacher 400 and ended up very cold at the finish, still shivering when I got back to my parents house.   I took Sunday off and did a 2hr recovery ride yesterday.

I could still feel some fatigue in the legs this morning.   I have done a lot of miles recently as I tried to catch up for my missed Winter but this could also be down to age catching up with me.

Anyway I have a 25 mile TT this Saturday which might blow the cobwebs away.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1614 on: May 07, 2019, 05:57:57 pm »
My Garmin predicted 72h recovery from the 400k. That means tomorrow. I don't feel recovered today, that's for sure.


Re: Base training
« Reply #1615 on: May 07, 2019, 08:36:47 pm »
My Garmin predicted 72h recovery from the 400k. That means tomorrow. I don't feel recovered today, that's for sure.

Last week the Garmin gave me 48hrs recovery after a 1hr turbo but 23hrs recovery after the 400.  I don’t entirely trust the algorithm.

simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1616 on: May 07, 2019, 08:41:13 pm »
My Garmin predicted 72h recovery from the 400k. That means tomorrow. I don't feel recovered today, that's for sure.

Last week the Garmin gave me 48hrs recovery after a 1hr turbo but 23hrs recovery after the 400.  I don’t entirely trust the algorithm.

It generally does seem too optimistic. I think recovery from a 400 takes me weeks not hours.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1617 on: May 07, 2019, 11:09:08 pm »
What is Garmin recovery time? Does the device do it or is it a Garmin connect thing?

Re: Base training
« Reply #1618 on: May 08, 2019, 07:06:18 am »
What is Garmin recovery time? Does the device do it or is it a Garmin connect thing?

When you finish a session or ride and hit ‘save’ it gives you an estimate of your recovery time.   I think mine does it off HR zones.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1619 on: May 08, 2019, 08:41:21 am »
OK, must be a recent addition to the more modern Garmins.  I'm a luddite clinging to my 705 (as 17h battery and very rarely crashes)!

Re: Base training
« Reply #1620 on: May 09, 2019, 02:43:19 pm »
It's still progress,

An addendum to this...

I've mention up-thread that I seem to need a fair amount of recovery, and since commencing this season's "plan" back in November have really tried to focus on this: generally keeping volume to modest (low) levels, eating really well, getting more sleep than I used to, generally looking after myself.

Although the last few month's training only led to a couple of percent FTP improvement, I've noticed that I'm recovering faster. So long as I enter a period well rested I have on a few occasions been able to string together a bunch (block) of hard outdoor rides (ie. decent TSS) and not suffered too much (got ill or been ruined) afterwards.

This ability is a definite change (improvement) for me, and a measure of increased "fitness" not captured by the meagre FTP increase. FTP is a convenient yardstick for gauging progress but there's a lot more going on than that alone. Another reason for my optimistic take on how my plan's going.

PS this book, "Good to Go: How to Eat, Sleep and Rest Like a Champion" is excellent, taking an evidence-based approach to show that nearly every fashionable recovery technique (fad) has no effect other than placebo, bar the things named in the book's title:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/150982765X

Turns out evolution built us pretty well, sans compression recovery boots, cryotherapy booths etc.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1621 on: May 16, 2019, 04:56:16 pm »
There's an argument that the cryo boots etc basically just make you sit still, and that's the recovery mechanism. :)

I did Kaiser this morning. It's supposed to be 6 of 3 on 3 off intervals of 120%. I did the first 3 properly, dropped to 95% for the 4th, skipped the 5th and did the last at 95%. It was as hard as expected (and I'm not totally sure I was recovered fully from my beasting on the TTT on Tuesday night)!
https://www.trainerroad.com/career/duncanm23/rides/55929205-kaiser

My back/ab/hip are a bit sore now (one of the reasons why I skipped interval 5), but they'll be working again by Sunday. I'm supposed to do Mount Goode +3, but I might go outside and just do a couple of laps of the local 10 course if the weather is nice.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1622 on: May 17, 2019, 11:47:33 am »
For the first time in ages I have been able to complete the sessions planned for me.   I must have had 4 weeks where I wasn't quite working right physically and mentally, so I hope I haven't given much back.

I have my 600k this weekend and then we get into some TTs in June/July.

Re: Base training
« Reply #1623 on: May 17, 2019, 08:55:30 pm »
There's an argument that the cryo boots etc basically just make you sit still, and that's the recovery mechanism. :)

No joke, that is basically it.

I was interested to learn from the book how clued up top professional sports teams are regarding this - essentially the coaches know the recovery gizmos are a crock with the benefits being "just" placebo/enforced relaxation (per your comment), but this is still worthwhile for pros where any advantage is worth the cost/hassle... An example given was of a Champions League team where, if I recall, each player was allowed to choose their own recovery treatment from a suite of options - them making their own positive choice as opposed to it being enforced upon them by coaching staff was key to a perceived benefit occurring.

Re my "training", outdoor rides have dominated recently; the TR workouts I've done have been intense above-threshold stuff as (a) I find doing this less unpalatable when on the trainer than when riding outdoors, and (b) the outdoor rides are providing plenty of the lower intensity stuff (as well as good doses of the harder stuff too...).



simonp

  • Omnomnomnipotent.
Re: Base training
« Reply #1624 on: May 17, 2019, 09:17:28 pm »
Back on TR tonight - did Avalanche Spire. This is my first time on the bike this week after 300k at the weekend and 400k the weekend before. CV fitness seems good (lower HR) but legs not so much. They complained lots.

Day off tomorrow then another hard-ish workout on Sunday before easier workouts during the week leading up to the 600k PBP qualifier.

https://www.trainerroad.com/career/sproven/rides/56005576-avalanche-spire