All I want is a horizontal top tube...

[Kim]

Anyone who thinks that cyclists look anything other than ridiculous has been cycling too long. 

[TimC]

And if rock music is 'modern', I have to suspect that I'm talking to someone rather more... mature, even than I!!

[P Walsh]

To me (grey haired and past my prime) horizontal top tubes always looked wrong. Sloping them seemed like a great aesthetic improvement. But aesthetics are personal and it would be great if everyone could go out and buy a frame that looked the way they wanted it to. Sadly I think the horizontal top tube is becoming a niche thing and, therefore, costly.

[Morat]

I totally disagree with Kim, I find the effect of modern vehicles on the landscape/streetscape in this country quite offensive.

Okay, I really wasn't thinking about it in those terms, which would seem to contradict what I'd said about bikes in the previous paragraph.

I suppose you do have to consider the aesthetics of a car in context.  Since the primary purpose of a car is to sit around on the street in case its owner might need to go somewhere, there is plenty of scope for improvement of the design to that end.  Personally, I'd prefer an engineering solution - solving the mobility problem in a way that doesn't involve cluttering everywhere with cars - but if that's not practical maybe there's scope for improving the aesthetics.  A bit like making crisp packets that look better when lying in verges.

As a thought experiment, I'm imagining the likes of Bournville Village Trust mandating that residents can keep as many cars as they like, as long as they be of an approved model and colour.  The list of approved models being left as an exercise for the reader.

It is not unusual these days for newly built housing estates to have restrictive covenants against caravans, motorhomes, and "trade" vehicles so why not some similar prescription for cars.  I've lived most of my life in/around national parks and it's a complete mystery to me why the authorities go to great lengths to control development but allow visual mayhem in the form of too many ugly road vehicles.  Some of the honeypots have had to control car access by necessity but it's often more to do with lack of space than aesthetics.

If a horizontal top tube is what Highlander wants, then it's what he should have - if it's available. Doesn't float my boat, and I suspect I'm in the majority there, and, like Kim, I tend to go for things that make engineering sense.

I'm a bit (and only a bit) curious about the concept that 'it looks faster' and that you want a bike that will, at least for some of its life, will be wearing fat tyres (but not Schwalbes for some prejudicial reason!) yet you want to look and feel like a 'racing cyclist'. This, I think, alludes to an era of racing cycles and cyclists that I'm not familiar with! Are there similar idiosyncrasies when it comes to the choice of the other components?

I must admit I'm intrigued to see the built outcome of this selection process.

You can take the engineering factor too far - anyone remember the "Kirk Precision..?"

However, I'm willing to accept my view may be a generation thing, I well recall when the first compact frames appeared on the Sunday club run and not a small number of us derided these "girls bikes" as a passing fad.  I have my dignity to preserve...  Also I suspect many of us banging on about bikes of yesteryear being better looking hold the same opinions regarding modern "rock" music, probably best not to get onto that subject. 

But I look at pictures of the TdF from say the 1970's/80's with the classic frames, black shorts, black shoes white socks, and to me the modern peloton by comparison looks like a bunch of circus clowns.   Maybe to younger cyclists it's a bit like watching the England 1966 World Cup team with their tiny tiny shorts that look quite ridiculous now.  I'm not convinced.  Bikes and cyclists 30-40 years ago just looked so much better, the essential simplicity still preserved.

 http://www.bikeraceinfo.com/images-all/photo-galleries-images/racers-images/hinault-bernard/1981-tour-prologo-Hinault-i.jpg





   
     

He might look great to you (and who can really argue with a World Champion's jersey) but to me he looks like a world class athlete who has mistakenly taken his grandfather's bike out of the shed.

[Highlander]

And if rock music is 'modern', I have to suspect that I'm talking to someone rather more... mature, even than I!!

Ha ha I read that again it makes me sound like Malcolm Muggeridge doesn't it?  Sorry I meant modern rock as opposed to the genuine article which officially ended in August 1996 when the Ramones played their farewell concert it's been downhill ever since.   

It's probably worth another thread this but who knows any bike riding rock/pop stars?  I know of several household names who are or have been "proper" cyclists but possibly don't like it to be widely known, I suspect Kim is probably right... 
 

[Basil]

Both my Welsh bikes have sloping tubes, but all three of my Birmingham bikes have horizontal TTs.  This is very useful.  It says "Yeah you're overtaking me. Well I'm on this Grandad bike, see?  I might as well be on an ordinary"

Edit days later.
Oops, my Brum snow bike has a sloping TT.  Shows how often I look at it, let alone ride it.

[IanDG]

And if rock music is 'modern', I have to suspect that I'm talking to someone rather more... mature, even than I!!

Ha ha I read that again it makes me sound like Malcolm Muggeridge doesn't it?  Sorry I meant modern rock as opposed to the genuine article which officially ended in August 1996 when the Ramones played their farewell concert it's been downhill ever since.   

It's probably worth another thread this but who knows any bike riding rock/pop stars?  I know of several household names who are or have been "proper" cyclists but possibly don't like it to be widely known, I suspect Kim is probably right... 
 

Does David Byrne count? He even wrote a book about it.

[LittleWheelsandBig]

Peter Gabriel?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMwn_hnoS5Y

Eric Clapton?
http://www.cinelli.it/memorabilia/eng/065.html

Mick Jagger?
http://www.ironweedbp.com/ironweed-blog/category/mick%20jagger

Gary Kemp?
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/gary-kemp-the-big-interview-65832

There are a couple of others I know of but only one that I've ridden with.

[IanDG]

I'm with Highlander here. A horizontal tt has a 'classic' look, more pleasing to the eye especially for bikes of tall riders IMO.  I don't want a compact frame and another 4-5cm seat pin showing. It makes the bike look too small for me.

From the 70's  https://flic.kr/p/cHv8WE

My most recent purchase https://flic.kr/p/CTVpDK

My 22" mountain-bike (I accept that a modern frame would have more slope on the tt and higher steering) https://flic.kr/p/ARA8s6

[Mr Larrington]

It's probably worth another thread this but who knows any bike riding rock/pop stars?  I know of several household names who are or have been "proper" cyclists but possibly don't like it to be widely known, I suspect Kim is probably right...

Pink Fairies guitarist / Hawkwind bassist Paul Rudolph had a racing licence and on retiring from the music trade returned home to Canada and opened a bike shop in Vancouver..

[Highlander]

Peter Gabriel?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eMwn_hnoS5Y

Eric Clapton?
http://www.cinelli.it/memorabilia/eng/065.html

Mick Jagger?
http://www.ironweedbp.com/ironweed-blog/category/mick%20jagger

Gary Kemp?
http://www.cyclingweekly.co.uk/news/latest-news/gary-kemp-the-big-interview-65832

There are a couple of others I know of but only one that I've ridden with.

Slowhand and Mick Jagger were two I had in mind, the other one was Brian Ferry who used to ride with Houghton CC on Tyneside.  In fact he donated one of his gold discs to the club which is now a trophy know as the, er, Brian Ferry award.

I didn't know about David Byrne though.   

I'm with Highlander here. A horizontal tt has a 'classic' look, more pleasing to the eye especially for bikes of tall riders IMO.  I don't want a compact frame and another 4-5cm seat pin showing. It makes the bike look too small for me.

From the 70's  https://flic.kr/p/cHv8WE

My most recent purchase https://flic.kr/p/CTVpDK

My 22" mountain-bike (I accept that a modern frame would have more slope on the tt and higher steering) https://flic.kr/p/ARA8s6

Like it...   I might reconsider Surly having seen that CC but I think it's the colour that does it - BTW what bars have you got on it are they Midges or something similar?

It's probably worth another thread this but who knows any bike riding rock/pop stars?  I know of several household names who are or have been "proper" cyclists but possibly don't like it to be widely known, I suspect Kim is probably right...

Pink Fairies guitarist / Hawkwind bassist Paul Rudolph had a racing licence and on retiring from the music trade returned home to Canada and opened a bike shop in Vancouver..

How interesting - and according to wikipaedia his shop was called "Spin Cycle", can't believe no-one else has come up with that title for a bike shop.

[mattc]

Anyone who thinks that cyclists look anything other than ridiculous has been cycling too long.

Or they are a wrestler.

[velovoice]

I haven't read every post in this thread yet but as Kim mentioned me...

Yes, my custom frame is very compact, with a tall headtube and very sloping top tube on a bike that isn't obviously "small", so it looks odd. Yes, it looks odd to me. I've had it 3 years and it still looks wrong to me.

Because like a few others, I too very much prefer the look of a horizontal top tube. And I have a bike which has one... which, when built up to come within a reasonable range of fitting me, looks like this: http://velovoice.blogspot.co.uk/p/surly-cross-check.html

Ridiculous. Who can possibly appreciate the beauty of a horizontal TT when there's 8cm of spacers sitting over that headtube??

I did have one "redline" requirement for my custom build though:  the rear triangle had to form an isosceles triangle, else it would really look wrong to me in a way I couldn't handle. Fortunately, a tweak of only about 1cm was needed and it wouldn't affect handling, so the frame designer indulged me

[Highlander]

I haven't read every post in this thread yet but as Kim mentioned me...

Yes, my custom frame is very compact, with a tall headtube and very sloping top tube on a bike that isn't obviously "small", so it looks odd. Yes, it looks odd to me. I've had it 3 years and it still looks wrong to me.

Because like a few others, I too very much prefer the look of a horizontal top tube. And I have a bike which has one... which, when built up to come within a reasonable range of fitting me, looks like this: http://velovoice.blogspot.co.uk/p/surly-cross-check.html

Ridiculous. Who can possibly appreciate the beauty of a horizontal TT when there's 8cm of spacers sitting over that headtube??

I did have one "redline" requirement for my custom build though:  the rear triangle had to form an isosceles triangle, else it would really look wrong to me in a way I couldn't handle. Fortunately, a tweak of only about 1cm was needed and it wouldn't affect handling, so the frame designer indulged me

Believe it or not I actually like your custom bike I think this is an example of why the development of the compact frame has generally been a Good Thing for cycling.  The Surly by comparison doesn't look as "right", your morphology and style of riding clearly suits  the sloping top tube/raised head tube - learn to love it I think it looks great!

BUT, it wouldn't be right for me and this is where the thread started.  I'm quite small but I have ridiculously long legs, I  just don't feel right on a compact frame but they do make a lot of sense for folk with relatively short legs.  When I was racing, admittedly some time ago, I had a 13cm stem slammed almost five inches below the saddle and though I can't get into that position these days the "high saddle low bars" set up I prefer looks, to my eyes,  much better with a flat top tube.

My problem with the compact frame lies in its ubiquity.  Newcomers to cycling realistically only have one product to choose from these days, and I just think it's a shame especially for other "bambi" shaped folk like me.     

[IanDG]

Like it...   I might reconsider Surly having seen that CC but I think it's the colour that does it - BTW what bars have you got on it are they Midges or something similar?

Yes, Midge. There are some local purpose built twisting gravel mtb/walking tracks. I had bar end shifters in the shed and wanted some clearance for my knees so went for a flared drop bar 

[mattc]

I did have one "redline" requirement for my custom build though:  the rear triangle had to form an isosceles triangle, else it would really look wrong to me in a way I couldn't handle. Fortunately, a tweak of only about 1cm was needed

You've got this bad, havent you? Sadly there is no known cure!

[TimC]

And if rock music is 'modern', I have to suspect that I'm talking to someone rather more... mature, even than I!!

Ha ha I read that again it makes me sound like Malcolm Muggeridge doesn't it?  Sorry I meant modern rock as opposed to the genuine article which officially ended in August 1996 when the Ramones played their farewell concert it's been downhill ever since.   

It's probably worth another thread this but who knows any bike riding rock/pop stars?  I know of several household names who are or have been "proper" cyclists but possibly don't like it to be widely known, I suspect Kim is probably right... 
 

Paul Heaton is one you can add to those mentioned above.

[hubner]

Anyone who thinks that cyclists look anything other than ridiculous has been cycling too long.

Cyclists in cycling clothing only look ridiculous off the bike, especially if they're trying to walk in racing shoes with shoe plates or Look style cleats.

[hubner]

The trouble is some people want all of the following on one bike:
lots of seatpin exposed therefore a low top tube,
drop bars positioned high to very high , (my definition of "high" is level with top of saddle),
a racing bike or something similar to a racing bike.

That simply cannot be acheived on a bike with a horizontal top tube, at least not without it looking like a dog's dinner!

In pre-compact frame days, if you wanted highish bars, like on a touring bike,  you would get a slightly bigger frame so the head tube's a bit longer so you can position the bars higher, prob with the quill stem at the max height. Even then, the bars will not be much higher than the saddle if at all.

I'm only talking about what used be called "lightweights", ie bikes ridden by enthusiasts/club cyclists etc. Bars at the same height as the saddle will give a fairly uprightish/semi-crouched riding position, in between a racing crouch and an upright position. If you want an upright position, it might be better to get a sit-up-and-beg type bike.

Remember, compact frames were introduced so that maufacturers only had to make frames in 2 or 3 sizes instead of ten or more. Compact frames are practically one size fits all. that's why they *look* crap if you are used to seeing bike from the 50s to 90s!

In the end it's what you're used to. Bit fit is the relative position of the pedals, saddle and bars, how it's acheived is mainly arbitary, although frame geometry does affect handling.

....

Because like a few others, I too very much prefer the look of a horizontal top tube. And I have a bike which has one... which, when built up to come within a reasonable range of fitting me, looks like this: http://velovoice.blogspot.co.uk/p/surly-cross-check.html

Ridiculous. Who can possibly appreciate the beauty of a horizontal TT when there's 8cm of spacers sitting over that headtube??
...

I could be wrong but that looks like a sloping top tube.

[mattc]

The trouble is some people want all of the following on one bike:
lots of seatpin exposed therefore a low top tube,

Do they? Why?!? (I've heard people wanting to avoid it.) Do they want to make their legs seem longer?!?

Remember, compact frames were introduced so that maufacturers only had to make frames in 2 or 3 sizes instead of ten or more. Compact frames are practically one size fits all. that's why they *look* crap if you are used to seeing bike from the 50s to 90s!

IIRC they were sold as being more rigid. My intuition says this is wrong, but I've never seen a convincing analysis either way, and I suspect <1% of riders could ever tell anyway!

....

Because like a few others, I too very much prefer the look of a horizontal top tube. And I have a bike which has one... which, when built up to come within a reasonable range of fitting me, looks like this: http://velovoice.blogspot.co.uk/p/surly-cross-check.html

Ridiculous. Who can possibly appreciate the beauty of a horizontal TT when there's 8cm of spacers sitting over that headtube??
...

I could be wrong but that looks like a sloping top tube.

Hard to tell for sure in those piccies - I'd say its 1-or-2' off horizontal; I think that qualifies for many viewers, you'd hardly call it "Compact".

[P Walsh]

No-one is ever going to convince anyone else on this subject. When I first saw a semi-compact frame I thought it looked better than my best frame with its horizontal top tube. And I haven't changed my mind. Frames with horizontal top tubes and little seat pin showing now look too big for the rider, to my eyes. But its all subjective and none of it really matters. I would hate to think that everybody had to have frames that look the same.

[mzjo]

Sorry but all this talk about fast looking classic frames with horizontal top tubes has got my perverted mind working. Straight off Google images I'm sorry







I actually went looking for some of the East German funny bikes. Obviously the choice is huge, including some bikes without top tubes. None of them suited to riding along tow paths fitted with knobblies.
I am a bit old-fashioned; even my bent has a horizontal top tube.

Hope the links work

[TimC]

IIRC the first compact frames were designed by Mike Burrows for the Giant racing department, and the justification was stiffness.

[Mr Larrington]

And also because they only needed to make them in four or five sizes instead of double that.  Though Giant did have to make some XXS ones for David Etxebsrria.

[velovoice]

I haven't read every post in this thread yet but as Kim mentioned me...

Yes, my custom frame is very compact, with a tall headtube and very sloping top tube on a bike that isn't obviously "small", so it looks odd. Yes, it looks odd to me. I've had it 3 years and it still looks wrong to me.

Because like a few others, I too very much prefer the look of a horizontal top tube. And I have a bike which has one... which, when built up to come within a reasonable range of fitting me, looks like this: http://velovoice.blogspot.co.uk/p/surly-cross-check.html

Ridiculous. Who can possibly appreciate the beauty of a horizontal TT when there's 8cm of spacers sitting over that headtube??

I did have one "redline" requirement for my custom build though:  the rear triangle had to form an isosceles triangle, else it would really look wrong to me in a way I couldn't handle. Fortunately, a tweak of only about 1cm was needed and it wouldn't affect handling, so the frame designer indulged me

Believe it or not I actually like your custom bike I think this is an example of why the development of the compact frame has generally been a Good Thing for cycling.  The Surly by comparison doesn't look as "right", your morphology and style of riding clearly suits  the sloping top tube/raised head tube - learn to love it I think it looks great!

BUT, it wouldn't be right for me and this is where the thread started.  I'm quite small but I have ridiculously long legs, I  just don't feel right on a compact frame but they do make a lot of sense for folk with relatively short legs. When I was racing, admittedly some time ago, I had a 13cm stem slammed almost five inches below the saddle and though I can't get into that position these days the "high saddle low bars" set up I prefer looks, to my eyes,  much better with a flat top tube.

My problem with the compact frame lies in its ubiquity.  Newcomers to cycling realistically only have one product to choose from these days, and I just think it's a shame especially for other "bambi" shaped folk like me.     

But... frames as compact as mine are the answer for people with proportionately short bodies and long legs. That is exactly my problem: standard frames don't have enough stack. (http://velovoice.blogspot.co.uk/2015/09/bike-sizing-in-real-world-or-making.html)

For me, function trumps form. No worries about learning to love my bike -- every ride, within 5 minutes I remark out loud,  to no one in particular, "Did I mention that I love this bike?"