Author Topic: EPE's?  (Read 3058 times)

Martin

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EPE's?
« on: March 23, 2016, 10:53:04 am »
Yes that's Extended perm events; they don't exist as such. Not sure if they are even legal. I'm certainly not offering to admin them as well as ECE's as the potential number is infinite unlike calendar events. Last time this was discussed it was suggested that they be run as DIYs for the whole thing

what do the panel think?

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2016, 11:08:26 am »
The only reason I can think of why you'd need them over just DIY-ing the whole thing is where you don't have a GPS and the Perm you want to ride has info controls because no normal proof-of-passage controls are available at certain points to make the route up to distance.

As I have a GPS I'd just buy the routesheet from the Perm organiser and then create my own DIY (either using GPS for the tricky control locations, or just GPS the whole thing with mandatory routing).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Martin

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2016, 11:13:33 am »
The only reason I can think of why you'd need them over just DIY-ing the whole thing is where you don't have a GPS and the Perm you want to ride has info controls because no normal proof-of-passage controls are available at certain points to make the route up to distance.

Which would only be acceptable for perms below 200km in total

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2016, 11:56:20 am »
Which would only be acceptable for perms below 200km in total

Have the older ones been tightened up? I'm sure there used to be info controls on the Cheddar Gorge 300k perm (I bought an entry years ago but never rode it).
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Martin

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2016, 12:26:23 pm »
Which would only be acceptable for perms below 200km in total

Have the older ones been tightened up? I'm sure there used to be info controls on the Cheddar Gorge 300k perm (I bought an entry years ago but never rode it).

I rode a perm 200 in 2014 with an info; although I think it was there to enforce climbing; it would have been a lot further to avoid it

wilkyboy

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2016, 12:53:47 pm »
As a permanents organiser, EPE would be rather nice — I run nine perms and riders from the area have asked to "ECE the perm" to 300km.  Every time I've had to offer them the routesheet and GPX and suggest they create their own DIY, which means their ride doesn't count in my org stats and I have no visibility of their pace or get any post-ride feedback; I also lose their entry fee, some of which goes towards hosting the website, domain name renewals, etc.  If I could offer an EPE — even if I have to administer my own EPEs and check them — that would encourage more riders in the wider region to attempt one or more of my perms.

I understand Martin that you don't want to administer it — is there any way EPEs could be administered by individual perm orgs?  Or would it need one central person responsible?
RRTY #7 done.  Need something else to do ... ah, welcome #8 8)

Martin

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2016, 01:10:51 pm »
I understand Martin that you don't want to administer it — is there any way EPEs could be administered by individual perm orgs?  Or would it need one central person responsible?

completely agree about using your hard work as a perm organiser to then not get the benefit of entries if it's done as a DIY; I have used calendar routes as the basis for DIY's (always with the permission of the organiser and I always try to ride the actual calendar version) mainly to guarantee AAA for a section,

I don't see any reason why a perm organiser could not offer tailorable extensions to their own perms, they would have to conform to set distances like ECE's though. It's extra work for the perm sec to set them all up though. It could all be done by one person which would make it simpler. In theory I could allocate ECE's to perms & they would show up the same in the results; but it's not been agreed by AUK and I've enough on my plate  ;)

could you not run a 300 version of your 200 perms with a flexible start / finish location and a common middle (or beginning or end) bit?

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2016, 01:20:12 pm »
Nick, that looks good. Useful for riders and encourages them to make use of the Perm Org's nice ready-planned route. Perms, as opposed to DIY perms, do surely deserve more use. All as you say.

It would be great if a way of doing the admin can be worked out. A central person wouldn't have the useful local expertise.

(DIYs can also be excellent of course, but it's a great pity if they reduce use of the "real" Perms [declares interest/involvement].)

[cross-post with Martin, who has thought further than me]

Tomsk

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2016, 05:47:51 pm »
I've turned my own permanent routes into longer DIYs and no doubt others do to: the routes are out there in the public domain and there are perhaps only so many good audax routes in a given area. Some sort of EPE would be a good idea I feel...Not beyond individual organisers to administer I'd have thought.

mattc

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2016, 06:04:38 pm »
Massive YES from me! (as I have said on previous threads).

Nick, that looks good. Useful for riders and encourages them to make use of the Perm Org's nice ready-planned route. Perms, as opposed to DIY perms, do surely deserve more use. All as you say.

It would be great if a way of doing the admin can be worked out. A central person wouldn't have the useful local expertise.

(DIYs can also be excellent of course, but it's a great pity if they reduce use of the "real" Perms [declares interest/involvement].)
[my bold]

Indeed.

Turning rides into DIYs just makes things worse, as the statistics show ever-more DIY rides and ever-decreasing "real" rides. I plan to support this issue by riding my first Cambrian perm (or 2) next week :)

possibly OT ramble:
(click to show/hide)
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2016, 06:50:50 pm »
It wouldn't be too hard to write something to compare a submitted GPX file (of a real ride) with the GPX files of known perm (and calendar) rides and if there's a good enough match/commonality then the ride can be attributed and named appropriately, e.g.

a DIY-by-GPS ride that...
* follows 98% of a known Perm just gets renamed as if the perm was ridden
* took a known Perm route but started from somewhere that isn't a usual control -> renamed as if the perm was ridden
* ECE'd a calendar ride (e.g. Brazier's Run 100) into a 200 -> Brazier's Run 100 + 100 ECE = 200km ride
* followed a calendar ride route (but not on the day that the calendar ride runs and isn't available as a perm) -> Calendar Ride 100 Pseudo-Perm + 100 EPE
* combined two halves of two different routes, e.g. the top 200km of the Bryan Chapman combined with the Snowdon & Coast 400 -> 400km Mashup of the Bryan Chapman and Snowdon & Coast

That way organisers start to get credit for their routes.
"Yes please" said Squirrel "biscuits are our favourite things."

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2016, 08:21:45 pm »
It wouldn't be too hard to write something to compare a submitted GPX file (of a real ride) with the GPX files of known perm (and calendar) rides

Already in process (albeit without consideration of EPEs and other mash-ups)
However ... the AUK forum is probably the better place for discussion of such things as new types of ride.


Martin

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2016, 08:30:43 pm »
Noted Peter I'll shift this over the road ;-)

http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=1046.msg9327#msg9327

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2016, 09:19:03 am »
Yes +1 !  :thumbsup:

I'd prefer riding to the start of a perm and including the to and from distance in the total. I think it would encourage others to do the same and keep perms going too.

Perms are a great way to ride a route that's been carefully planned and thought about by someone with local knowledge. If we all just rode our own routes planned on ridewithgps (or whatever app we might use), we could well miss out on some real nuggets that only locals know about.

Anything that encourages more perms being ridden and more long distance riding gets my vote.

Martin

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2016, 05:20:44 pm »
just rekindling this thread and BTW

I AM NOT WILLING TO TAKE THEM ON!!!

How about each perm organiser who wanted to allow their perm to be extended have a range of EPE's to tack onto the result (all for double the entry fee I presume)

thus my perms are MM01, 02, 03 etc; I could have MME01 to add 100km; MME02 for 200 etc

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2016, 06:05:41 pm »
Would it be less work to allow 2 permanents to be ridden on the same day eg a 200 and a 100 with a control in common as the start point? As a regular permanent rider and keen to support these lovely events, I think this would make for some interesting combinations of rides

mattc

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2016, 07:02:14 pm »
How about each perm organiser who wanted to allow their perm to be extended have a range of EPE's to tack onto the result (all for double the entry fee I presume)

thus my perms are MM01, 02, 03 etc; I could have MME01 to add 100km; MME02 for 200 etc

Would this mean the org having to shell out £20-30 for brevet cards? That seems a big disincentive  :-\

Otherwise I'm all for it (at least until I work out any more unintended consequences!)  :thumbsup:
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2016, 07:40:28 pm »
I'd love to see this happen.

What if the rider did a DIY perm by GPS, submitting it all (including the to and from section as well as the perm itself) to the DIY org, whilst making it clear where the actual perm started and finished ? The DIY extended sections could then be credited as one (whole) DIY perm and bought and paid for as a DIY perm in the usual way. The perm org could deal with their perm as usual.

Everyone then gets a slice of the action (and work).

Unscrupulous riders trying to get credit for both and admin could be an issue. As could the extra work generated.


Martin

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2016, 08:04:44 am »
How about each perm organiser who wanted to allow their perm to be extended have a range of EPE's to tack onto the result (all for double the entry fee I presume)

thus my perms are MM01, 02, 03 etc; I could have MME01 to add 100km; MME02 for 200 etc

Would this mean the org having to shell out £20-30 for brevet cards?

A simpler way would be to include the EPE on the perm card (scribbled somewhere) and pay for it as cardless validation which many orgs already do, 90% of my proper perm riders use gps and I get a regular and often painful invoice from AUK

I get occasional ECE's where the rider just scans the receipts and emails them and doesn't use a card, I mark these as Electronic validation (I have a drop down for each perm or ECE result where I can select card or electronic validation and I get a bill for all the electronic ones; "virtual" EPE cards could be paid for in the same way)

mattc

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #19 on: February 20, 2019, 12:15:22 pm »
I've just been catching up on the AGM votes:

apparently 540 members (of around 850 who voted) voted to stop EPEs from happening.

Now, there was a democratic process, so some would say  "The NATION has Decided!!!" n all that. But:

I didn't see a single voice in the online chatter saying they were a bad thing. Can any of the 540 explain why they voted it down? I'm really puzzled by this  :-\

[ "Hustings" thread here: http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=1642.msg13744#msg13744  ]
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

whosatthewheel

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #20 on: February 20, 2019, 12:18:11 pm »
I've just been catching up on the AGM votes:

apparently 540 members (of around 850 who voted) voted to stop EPEs from happening.

Now, there was a democratic process, so some would say  "The NATION has Decided!!!" n all that. But:

I didn't see a single voice in the online chatter saying they were a bad thing. Can any of the 540 explain why they voted it down? I'm really puzzled by this  :-\

[ "Hustings" thread here: http://forum.audax.uk/index.php?topic=1642.msg13744#msg13744  ]

I guess it's a lot more work for validators and such, having to put all the pieces together. In practice there is already a way to tweak permanent events to a given distance with a DIY

LittleWheelsandBig

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #21 on: February 20, 2019, 12:18:47 pm »
I suspect you'd find almost all of those votes were discretionary proxies controlled by the Chairman, if it were possible to find out.
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mattc

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #22 on: February 20, 2019, 12:24:46 pm »
I suspect you'd find almost all of those votes were discretionary proxies controlled by the Chairman, if it were possible to find out.
You could well be right. If we can't find out, isn't that rather odd?
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #23 on: February 20, 2019, 12:35:53 pm »
Democracy works best with a dash of openness on the side
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Martin

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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2019, 12:36:10 pm »
I wasn't aware there was a vote but I can understand why it was voted down;

ECE's were a concession in response to the unsatisfactory DIY+Cal concept which had existed before ECE's

AFAICS EPE's would not offer the following benefits that ECE's do, whilst creating a lot of extra admin

1. The ability to ride a local calendar event in company as part of a perm
2. Remove additional admin from the original event organiser
3. Keep the rider on the finish list of the calendar event

There have been many voices to make ECE's "all or nothing" and EPE's just add fuel to the fire IMO.

Maybe a compromise would be for organisers who wish their perm to be extended to offer an extended version? they could charge a bit more for the increased admin of defining and agreeing the extra controls to and from their actual route. Obviously they would not all want to do this which is where the DIY kicks in.

FWIW I've had quite a few enquiries about EPE'ing my own perms recently so there is clearly a market