Author Topic: EPE's?  (Read 3858 times)

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2019, 12:39:53 pm »
The voting info pack says:

"The Board believes that the administrative burden of introducing EPEs will outweigh the benefits to the membership as a whole. Accordingly, the Board recommends that you vote against this resolution"

https://www.mi-vote.com/files/AGM_Agenda.pdf

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: EPE's?
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2019, 01:06:09 pm »
FWIW I've had quite a few enquiries about EPE'ing my own perms recently so there is clearly a market

I've had a number of requests, too — members would like to include their ride to the start in Cambridge, and home after, as part of the ride and get the extra point(s).  The only solution currently is for them to DIY the entire route, which then means they don't appear against the totals for riders of my perms and so lowers my organiser's year-end total.  These things matter*.



* but not much.
RRTY #7 done.  Need something else to do ... ah, welcome #8 8)

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2019, 01:14:04 pm »
The voting info pack says:

"The Board believes that the administrative burden of introducing EPEs will outweigh the benefits to the membership as a whole. Accordingly, the Board recommends that you vote against this resolution"

https://www.mi-vote.com/files/AGM_Agenda.pdf
Thanks  :thumbsup:

Given the filename, it is inevitable that such statements may slide out of the historic record over time. This seems very relevant:

Democracy works best with a dash of openness on the side
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Martin

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2019, 01:26:28 pm »
FWIW I've had quite a few enquiries about EPE'ing my own perms recently so there is clearly a market

I've had a number of requests, too — members would like to include their ride to the start in Cambridge, and home after, as part of the ride and get the extra point(s).  The only solution currently is for them to DIY the entire route, which then means they don't appear against the totals for riders of my perms and so lowers my organiser's year-end total.  These things matter*.



* but not much.

I know it's a lot of initial admin for John Ward but I like the idea of offering eg an "AAA Milne 200" in addition to the 100k normal version. The only difference would be that there were two extra controls which would be defined as Anywhere (this is currently allowed for Darts and Arrows)

BZZZTTT!! just realised this would mean there would be a 200k perm with several info controls, AIUI this was justified for ECE's on the basis that other riders would notice someone blatantly cutting short the route; plus of course nobody knows the questions until the day unlike perms

wilkyboy

  • "nick" by any other name
    • 16-inch wheels
Re: EPE's?
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2019, 01:31:11 pm »
I know it's a lot of initial admin for John Ward but I like the idea of offering eg an "AAA Milne 200" in addition to the 100k normal version. The only difference would be that there were two extra controls which would be defined as Anywhere (this is currently allowed for Darts and Arrows)

BZZZTTT!! just realised this would mean there would be a 200k perm with several info controls, AIUI this was justified for ECE's on the basis that other riders would notice someone blatantly cutting short the route

There is also a potential issue of level-1 organisers being able to offer level-2-distance events via the back door.  Also, GPS-validation for classic-perms over 200km is currently not permitted.  Neither is an issue that would take much thought to resolve.
RRTY #7 done.  Need something else to do ... ah, welcome #8 8)

Martin

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #30 on: February 20, 2019, 01:38:23 pm »
I know it's a lot of initial admin for John Ward but I like the idea of offering eg an "AAA Milne 200" in addition to the 100k normal version. The only difference would be that there were two extra controls which would be defined as Anywhere (this is currently allowed for Darts and Arrows)

BZZZTTT!! just realised this would mean there would be a 200k perm with several info controls, AIUI this was justified for ECE's on the basis that other riders would notice someone blatantly cutting short the route

There is also a potential issue of level-1 organisers being able to offer level-2-distance events via the back door.  Also, GPS-validation for classic-perms over 200km is currently not permitted.  Neither is an issue that would take much thought to resolve.

Not sure about the various ladders orgs have to climb as I only organise up to 200s; also I was already quite high up the tree when I set perms up so I've always had the finish list with the option of card / electronic validation per rider (electronic lands me a bill every so often as I've not had to buy cards up front)

When I did a couple of perms on the Isle of Man I ended up bringing the cards back as they had to be posted back to John on the mainland, not sure if this is something anyone still has to do.

frankly frankie

  • I kid you not
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Re: EPE's?
« Reply #31 on: February 20, 2019, 01:41:44 pm »
Also, GPS-validation for classic-perms over 200km is currently not permitted.

It is permitted.  Just not facilitated.
It's not dark yet but it's getting there.

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: EPE's?
« Reply #32 on: February 20, 2019, 08:01:48 pm »
For the benefit of those who have not read the resolution rationale, it read as follows:

Quote
Proposer’sand Seconder’s Rationale: To allow AUK Permanent events and for events organised by associate/affiliate organisations and recognised by AUK, e.g., overseas BRM events validated by the local ACP affiliate to be extended.Overtime the definition of an 'ECE' has been expanded to include BRM events validated by other ACP associates (listed as 'overseas' events in the results section of the Audax UK website) and this resolution makes provision for this explicit in the Audax UK Regulations.

Some Members have also asked for the ability to similarly extend Audax UK Permanent events. Currently riders wishing to incorporate a route registered as an AUK Permanent into a larger ride are forced to do so by registering the overall ride as a DIY Permanent. They would prefer instead to extend the Permanent and thereby support the Audax UK Permanent scheme and Permanent Organiser.

This would also allow the registered Permanent to appear in their results as part of an extended event rather than the ride listed as a somewhat anonymous 'DIY Permanent' as now.

EAE/EPEs are generally supported by the current AUK website, and, as variations of the existing ECE scheme, could be incorporated into the new AUK website project at this stage of its development at minimal additional cost and effort (leaving it to a later date would inevitably be far more costly). It is not expected there will be a large number of Extended Affiliate and Permanent Events validated each year, so the additional administrative effort to support them would be correspondingly low.

In summary this resolution is being progressed to recognise current practice, support riders' interests and facilitate future development

This seemed a fairly robust argument to me.

I find the phrasing of the Boards discommendation rather curious. EAE/EPEs would use the same administrative approach as ECEs and discussions with the ECE Secretary and AUKweb manager indicated that somewhat by serendipity it had been found that AUKweb de-facto currently supports EAE/EPE, so whilst doubtless some tidying up would be in order it is more or less ready to go and the major impediement would simply be to recruit an 'EPE Org'. I don't believe that would have been a problem and had indicated to the ECE Secretary that pro-tem I'd have been happy to take it on.

Not sure what happens next; I guess interested parties could apply to the Board for the resolution to be progressed as a Board sponsonsored change to appendices pending ratification at the next AGM. Over to you!

Martin

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #33 on: February 20, 2019, 09:54:02 pm »
Manotea; yes recruiting an EPE org (or 12!) would enable them to start along the same lines as ECE's as the website is already geared up to deal with them. But the info control issue for perms under 200km kills it stone dead for anything under 300k


we are after all assumed by AUK to be cheats unless proven otherwise...

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: EPE's?
« Reply #34 on: February 21, 2019, 12:03:55 am »
Manotea; yes recruiting an EPE org (or 12!) would enable them to start along the same lines as ECE's as the website is already geared up to deal with them. But the info control issue for perms under 200km kills it stone dead for anything under 300k

Info controls only apply for legacy perms and are the Perm Orgs concern, i.e., nothing to do with EPEs.


Martin

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #35 on: February 21, 2019, 07:28:04 am »
But by EPEing a BP with infos the rider is turning it into a BR with infos which they have the questions to in advance of the ride;

it only works by GPS

Manotea

  • Where there is doubt...
Re: EPE's?
« Reply #36 on: February 21, 2019, 08:00:50 am »
Concerns about converting a BP with Infos to a BR with Infos are misplaced; on the one hand there are BR perms with infos and on the other the BP perm would continue to be a BP perm. Again, any issues relating to the use of Infos lie with the Perm not the EPE.

In practice it seems reasonable to expect that riders EPEing a BP would mostly validate by submitting a gpx track for the complete extended ride anyway, as that approach minimises the need to ride 'over distance' km to satisfy the EPE, and would in turn mean the validation process would follow the regular DIY path. These are procedural issues easily resolved. Where there's a will, there's a way.

Re: EPE's?
« Reply #37 on: February 21, 2019, 08:26:02 am »
FWIW I've had quite a few enquiries about EPE'ing my own perms recently so there is clearly a market

I've had a number of requests, too — members would like to include their ride to the start in Cambridge, and home after, as part of the ride and get the extra point(s).  The only solution currently is for them to DIY the entire route, which then means they don't appear against the totals for riders of my perms and so lowers my organiser's year-end total.  These things matter*.



* but not much.

I know it's a lot of initial admin for John Ward but I like the idea of offering eg an "AAA Milne 200" in addition to the 100k normal version. The only difference would be that there were two extra controls which would be defined as Anywhere (this is currently allowed for Darts and Arrows)

BZZZTTT!! just realised this would mean there would be a 200k perm with several info controls, AIUI this was justified for ECE's on the basis that other riders would notice someone blatantly cutting short the route; plus of course nobody knows the questions until the day unlike perms

Really appreciated you crafting that AAA Milne 200 for me Martin. Did it last weekend. FWIW I voted yes for the resolution. The sponsors’ argument was robust with the Board offering little to counter it. Proxy sounds like the reason we didn’t get it. I own shares and that was the first time I actually enjoyed, and took something, from reading the rationales behind each proposal—so much passion! PLCs should take note.

GdS

  • Strictly
Re: EPE's?
« Reply #38 on: June 22, 2020, 02:30:25 pm »
I never took to the idea of including perms in ECE's but if there are only going to be perms allowed soon I would be willing to offer EPE's in the interim if it was of use. I'm not sure if this against the rules and entry would not be as slick as with ECE's.

The main advantages I can think of are

1. to allow AAA 100k perms to be EPE'd to 200 for RRTY and also AAARTY rather than chancing that a DIY would qualify.
2. to enable perm organisers to get some credit for riders combining their perms into longer rides.

I know validation works OK on the website as i did accept an EPE a few years ago as I was not aware that the rider was doing the perm version of a calendar event, it was all homolgated with the correct date and points.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: EPE's?
« Reply #39 on: June 23, 2020, 07:19:44 am »
I never took to the idea of including perms in ECE's but if there are only going to be perms allowed soon I would be willing to offer EPE's in the interim if it was of use. I'm not sure if this against the rules and entry would not be as slick as with ECE's.

The main advantages I can think of are

1. to allow AAA 100k perms to be EPE'd to 200 for RRTY and also AAARTY rather than chancing that a DIY would qualify.
2. to enable perm organisers to get some credit for riders combining their perms into longer rides.

I know validation works OK on the website as i did accept an EPE a few years ago as I was not aware that the rider was doing the perm version of a calendar event, it was all homolgated with the correct date and points.
Sounds like an excellent idea, under the current situation  :thumbsup:

Suggest you raise it direct with AUK? (e.g. on the official forum)

IIRC when the Chairman voted down this proposal, one of the reasons was lack of likely demand.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles