Author Topic: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?  (Read 6560 times)

mattc

  • "Hannibal"
  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #25 on: September 20, 2016, 12:19:00 pm »
Ha yes you caught me I work in manufacturing but for a small company where everything is hand built so not fast moving but I work in the sales dept where my boss came from corporate banking and he was trying to encourage us to apply SMART to our next actions targets and sales follow up calls.

I think it's applicable in this context though

Ah righty-ho! I've worked in manufacturing for a few years now, but never seen SMART. Not in what I'd call "proper modern" companies though, so I'm not claiming broad experience.

I have heard it in relation to sports training before. In my mind, it makes more sense in endurance sport than in sales! But this may reflect the fact that I've never worked in sales, and would rather buy a power-meter than take such a job :P
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #26 on: September 20, 2016, 02:32:03 pm »
I have a PDF copy of this if anyone wants it?

Think I’ll try to get the dead-tree version. Thanks though.

As for SMART, that’s the sort of technique/jargon/mindset that profoundly repulses me. Remember, I don’t want this to remind me of work, much less the unspeakable horror of the modern workplace.

The fact it came from my workplace is irrelevant. As Matt says it's actually more applicable to training, I don't actually apply it at work, it's just stuck to my monitor :)

Without a target or a specific goal you won't develop beyond 'just riding my bike' which is where you started and where you are clearly happiest. You asked for advice and most of it appears repugnant so do what I do and 'just ride your bike'

Enjoy. I'm out.
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #27 on: September 20, 2016, 02:37:58 pm »
Ha yes you caught me I work in manufacturing but for a small company where everything is hand built so not fast moving but I work in the sales dept where my boss came from corporate banking and he was trying to encourage us to apply SMART to our next actions targets and sales follow up calls.

I think it's applicable in this context though

I have heard it in relation to sports training before. In my mind, it makes more sense in endurance sport than in sales! But this may reflect the fact that I've never worked in sales, and would rather buy a power-meter than take such a job :P

Sales in the loosest sense of the word. I'm a proposals engineer, used to apply my experience to ensure the Sales Managers don't get too far off the plot and ensure the products sold - which are all bespoke - make some sort of sense to customers and the engineering department who have to design the solution once it's been sold.

Still means I go to the sales meetings and told to be SMART though
Duct tape is magic and should be worshipped

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #28 on: September 20, 2016, 02:50:54 pm »
Salespeople selling products that can't be delivered or that they don't understand ?   Never......

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2016, 09:04:13 pm »
In terms of the OP's question, I would venture that many of the riders I know who do long Audax rides, and can handle most rides don't do any "training" other than just continuing to do it, and use no metrics other than distance ( because that's what motivates them). I won't embarrass well known Audax figures I know well by naming them, but non of them use a pulse or a power meter.

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2016, 09:26:31 pm »
Of course even racers got along without power meters and heart-rate monitors for most of cycling’s history. Did these stout men believe in heart-rate training? I suspect they instead believed in the waxing and waning of the four humours.

So high fitness can clearly be achieved without making it too scientific. I just have to find a balance between maximum efficiency and maximum enjoyment.

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #31 on: September 27, 2016, 09:57:44 pm »
Did these stout men believe in heart-rate training?
I'm glad you posted that, I enjoyed watching it. One of the most enjoyable bike racing films I've seen, perhaps because it turned the entire however many stages into one short drama rather than any sort of report.

Ob training: I'm sure they would have used HRMs if they'd been available in 1964, and I'm sure their modern counterparts use power meters as they prepare to race through the "exotic names" of Trois Pistoles. (I find myself wondering whether the name refers to guns or old Spanish coins.)

It's not entirely irrelevant that some of them were using bar end shifters, an item now thought suitable for touring.

It is entirely irrelevant that one of the teams had jerseys identical to the shirts of Bristol Rovers FC!
The earth is vast and beautiful and contains many miraculous places. (Chekhov)

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #32 on: September 27, 2016, 10:34:12 pm »
Did these stout men believe in heart-rate training?
I'm glad you posted that, I enjoyed watching it. One of the most enjoyable bike racing films I've seen, perhaps because it turned the entire however many stages into one short drama rather than any sort of report.

It’s wonderful, isn’t it? It is no ordinary film but one by Jean-Claude Labrecque. His Wikipedia entry is worth reading.

I have no doubt those men would have used modern methods if they had existed, since modern methods work better. But how much better is an interesting question. After all, the fastest average speed in the Paris–Roubaix remains that of Peter Post in 1964, at over 45 km/h.

Psychler

  • Grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr........
  • 33.2 miles from Steeple Bumpstead
Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2016, 12:05:54 am »
I'm impressed that they all had saddle bags -  sorting out their own punctures?
I'm gonna limp to the pub and drink 'til the rest of me is as numb as my arse.

mattc

  • "Hannibal"
  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2016, 06:25:58 pm »
I'm impressed that they all had saddle bags -  sorting out their own punctures?
I guess - that is certainly a frame pump on the title screen!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #35 on: October 08, 2016, 09:53:28 pm »
If I were dumb enough to buy a power meter, which one would be least annoying?

My bicycle has a square-taper bottom bracket and unusual cranks (SunXCD), so crank-based ones are out. I like my Shimano rear hub as it is, too. So pedals, maybe? The new single-sided PowerTap P1S versus the Garmin Vector 2S? Both of these have a worrying number of reports of bearings going bad. And you can see why: they’ve used bushings rather than ball bearings for one of the bearings on the axle, and plastic bushings at that. (Though Garmin may have changed to bronze in later production – it’s all a bit vague).

Hmm.

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #36 on: October 08, 2016, 11:29:39 pm »
i personally don't trust pedal based power meters (also they tie you into using a specific shoe/cleat). rear hub pm ties you to that specific wheelset whis is also not ideal either. crank power meter is the way to go imo (could polish them to shiny silver for the more classy look, if that's important).
iirc, stages makes a square taper left crank for the dura ace track chainset.

TimC

  • Bike pilot
Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #37 on: October 09, 2016, 03:45:35 am »
I'd steer clear of Stages. Yes, Sky use them. But they have loads of techies around for full-time support, and if one device doesn't work they just slap on another. In the real world, a power meter is significant investment, so go for one that's reliable. In my experience, Stages is not. Mine (now two years old but with fully up to date firmware) works on maybe one ride in 5, and then only if I've fed it a new battery. Often it will connect to the Garmin or phone app before the ride, then record absolutely nothing. As a training device, it serves mainly to raise my heart rate and blood pressure to Zone 5!

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #38 on: October 09, 2016, 07:39:52 am »
I love my Powertap hub. Built it into a training wheel with a view to putting a deep section carbon rim on it next season but at £300 a pop I may just buy a second one ;D

I do find though, that HR is far a more useful metric while riding (outside, power is still king on the turbo), but analysing power after the ride gives many more hours a fun!

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2016, 07:52:12 am »
Powerpod? PBK have them for £240 if you are quick.

But....I'm not sure you need one. You don't seem to want to get into heavy data driven training, and why should you. Why not just use tried and tested methods that are free? Just stick in some intervals every now and again. OK, you won't be able to quantify improvement but so what.

If you have a gps and can face Strava then set up some segments on your commute and attack them. I've set up four segments on mine that function as intervals. Provided you attack them with gusto it will bring improvements, and it's fun. I have one segment that has a false flat running up to it, then a short 15% climb and then several hundred metres of shallow descent. Why? To train the body to be able to put out a short intense aerobic effort whilst already riding at an intensity, and then spinning out on the descent and grabbing just enough recovery.  I also have a steepish hill about 300m to get to my house. I nearly always put in a big out of the saddle effort.

Another tactic is to join a local group and ride with the speed group that presents a challenge. Race them up the hills.


Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2016, 08:06:09 am »

As for SMART, that’s the sort of technique/jargon/mindset that profoundly repulses me. Remember, I don’t want this to remind me of work, much less the unspeakable horror of the modern workplace.

SMART targets have always been the most effective way of achieving anything, long before the SMART acronym was coined. For example, say you want to lose weight, what do most people do?

1. Have a specific target to aim for, e.g. drop 10 kg/fit into a particular item of clothing etc.
2. Weight themselves or try on the dress, just looking in the mirror won't give you the short term feedback you need to keep going.
3. Whatever target you set yourself has to be achievable otherwise you will fail (obviously).
4. Usually you give yourself a time as well, before the first race on next season, for daughter's wedding, etc. This time constraint together with your weight target needs to be realistic so that as you measure your weekly weight loss you gain motivation.

People who do the above are more likely to achieve their targets than those that don't because they are using SMART targets even if they don't realise it.

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2016, 01:13:09 pm »
If you want average power and training stress scores (TSS) then the PowerCal is surprisingly good for ~£75.
It's not a true power meter but might be an indication as to whether you want to go down the route of data-driven training.
I've had one for a few years and it's very good for looking at overall training stress and how (for example) a short fast ride with intervals compares to a long "just riding your bike" ride.

Read more here:
http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2012/11/cycleops-powercal-in-depth-review.html

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #42 on: October 09, 2016, 02:00:42 pm »
i personally don't trust pedal based power meters

Why not? Is it the existing products or the idea you don’t like?

(also they tie you into using a specific shoe/cleat)

True, and in the case of PowerTap P1/P1S, it’s a proprietary cleat system (what possessed them to make that decision?). At least the Vector 2/2S uses standard Look Kéo cleats.

iirc, stages makes a square taper left crank for the dura ace track chainset.

Seems to be Octalink, actually. So no good.

TimC: that sounds annoying. I wonder why these things are so hard to make. Foil strain gauges, wireless data transmission, waterproofing: these are solved problems. Yet every power meter seems to have one problem or another, according to the user reviews.

There is a second-generation Stages, though. Perhaps it fixed some of your problems.

Pedal Castro: where are you seeing a PowerTap hub for £300?

Flatus: I’m already doing those kinds of rides.

Quick question: if I did change cranks to support a Stages/4iiii/Pioneer/other left crank, is there a decently priced way to combine external bottom bracket bearings with a 46T outer chainring?

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #43 on: October 09, 2016, 04:09:29 pm »
Whilst stages v1 did have problems there are still many users who have them and are satisfied.  I have had a stagesv1 for several years and have no problems with it.

the battery problems in my experience occur when the bike is left near a bluetooth source etc mobile phone.  It then trie perpetually to connect and the battery is dead by the morning.  Keep the bike in the garage and it is fine.

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2016, 04:43:47 pm »
Powertap P1 uses Wellgo cleats as does the Bepro which is £300 quid cheaper.   Apparently they should work with Keo pedals, but I have no definite experience.

Guys at cyclepowermeters are pretty helpful and I spent some time picking their brains a couple of weeks ago.   I'm only slightly guilty that I chose not to buy a power meter at all.

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2016, 06:41:51 pm »
I'm only slightly guilty that I chose not to buy a power meter at all.

Was that because, after research, none of them proved to be problem-free? Which one most tempted you?

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2016, 07:05:05 pm »

Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2016, 07:12:25 pm »
I'm only slightly guilty that I chose not to buy a power meter at all.

Was that because, after research, none of them proved to be problem-free? Which one most tempted you?

The bike I race and train on is fixed which left me with a choice of pedals, the power2max crankset and the octalink stages.   I wasn't massively enamoured with any solution but the pedals were the route of least resistance.   I was close to buying some P1s.

I've just agreed to start with a coach and I asked him to honestly tell me if I needed a power meter.   He basically said for track and short TTs power was really useful but for my targets - long TTs - we could manage without.


Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2016, 07:47:36 pm »
I've a set of P1s  , they work fine and Ive had no problems with them. My training is currently to correct a l/r balance issue and I'm making some progress now that I have some hard data to work from.  Before I got the pedals , I knew there was an imbalance , just not what, nor had anyway to measure it.

Pedal Castro

  • so talented I can run with scissors - ouch!
    • Two beers or not two beers...
Re: Training – the next step after just riding your bike?
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2016, 07:52:04 pm »
I've a set of P1s  , they work fine and Ive had no problems with them. My training is currently to correct a l/r balance issue and I'm making some progress now that I have some hard data to work from.  Before I got the pedals , I knew there was an imbalance , just not what, nor had anyway to measure it.

I read somewhere, can't remember where though, that trying to correct a natural L/R imbalance often resulted in less power overall.