Author Topic: Sky - gaming the system?  (Read 76486 times)

Sky - gaming the system?
« on: September 24, 2016, 02:18:32 pm »
Is this what's been going on? Following the rules to the letter, but exploiting the little wrinkles that allow getting away with what might be considered cheating?

Or is that harsh, & Sky is clean as a whistle, & every TUE is absolutely justified?

The number of top cyclists taking medication for asthma is interesting. Is it really well above the rate in the population as a whole or is that a mistaken impression?
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2016, 02:46:29 pm »
It would be interesting to see how many TUE requests get rejected.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Kim

  • 2nd in the world
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2016, 02:48:06 pm »
The number of top cyclists taking medication for asthma is interesting. Is it really well above the rate in the population as a whole or is that a mistaken impression?

Happens a lot with swimmers, because it's a sport that asthmatics are encouraged to do, and some of them turn out to be really good at it.  Maybe something similar is going on with cycling?
To ride the Windcheetah, first, you must embrace the cantilever...

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2016, 03:02:00 pm »
Asthma folk being pointed towards swimming is well known. I've never heard of them being pointed towards cycling.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2016, 03:32:42 pm »
The interesting thing is that several ex-pro riders have said that Wiggins use of strong steroid drugs and more importantly when he used them was identical to the protocol they used for doping purposes.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2016, 03:46:16 pm »
The number of top cyclists taking medication for asthma is interesting. Is it really well above the rate in the population as a whole or is that a mistaken impression?
rate in Gen Pop ~10%

Rate in ALL SPORTS ~20%

Rate of russians in all sports known to be cheats ~ much higher%  :P
(whom oddly have not been exposed by Operation Fairy Bear)

This is no big deal. But it is a nice bit of mud to throw, for those that reckon mud-slinging is cool.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2016, 09:03:25 pm »
I saw an interesting article the other day saying that different athletic events that require breathing heavily through the mouth for prolonged periods can help cause asthma because if you aren't "conditioning" the air through your nose then you are stressing the lungs. So the incidence of asthma in swimming and cycling could be caused by the training required to be elite at these sports.
As for Wiggins' TUEs, they look dodgy from a number of angles. There are lots of different drugs that he could have taken, and the timing looks pretty weird too. That said, the TUE was legitimately granted, so he's not broken any rules...
Cheers
Duncan

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2016, 09:22:08 pm »
Is there any evidence he took the drugs or is it a preemptive TUE in case he needed treatment during the event? Any other evidence of needing treatment other than those?
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2016, 11:21:11 pm »
Both Wiggo & his team say he was given injections of the drug covered by the TUEs on each occasion.
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2016, 11:33:12 pm »
Wiggo hasn't broken the rules but he has lied - said in his autobiography that he never had injections. And this when Sky had a stated no needles policy. That doesn't look good at all.

Froome, by contrast, has been up front about having used TUEs on two occasions - confirmed by the leak, but nothing else uncovered.

David Martin

  • Thats Dr Oi You thankyouverymuch
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #10 on: September 25, 2016, 12:07:39 am »
'Except for normal vaccinations' Maybe he was a bit confused by that..
"By creating we think. By living we learn" - Patrick Geddes

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2016, 09:32:29 am »
Only Wiggo looks dodgy so far.
Also, there hasn't been any data released from cyclists from other nations, so we don't really know how prevalent this type of TUE timing is for other, non-British cyclists.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2016, 09:48:37 am »
'Except for normal vaccinations' Maybe he was a bit confused by that..

His "spokesperson" clarified (when the fact of the injections first came out) that he'd meant "no intravenous injections". Apprently.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #13 on: September 25, 2016, 09:50:42 am »
Interesting interview with him on Andrew Marr show.

No doubt available on BBC iPlayer or whatever it is called.

As MattC stated, easy to throw mud.

Does doing something entirely legal make someone, or an organisation, bad?  Good debate about legality and morality applied to cycling as opposed to taxation!

Samuel D

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #14 on: September 25, 2016, 09:55:21 am »
Only Wiggo looks dodgy so far.

How does he look dodgy? On rare occasions he took a medicine recommended by his doctor and formally permitted by the relevant authorities.

Even if he had taken triamcinolone illegally (which is in no way the case), it would have had a tiny effect on performance. It’s nothing like the oxygen-vector doping of the past, which made a mockery of racing.

I think it’s a disgrace that the Russians have hacked into medical records and confused millions of people about doping by publishing them in this way.

Meanwhile, the use of TUEs in cycling has fallen dramatically over the last few years as the authorities have become stricter with issuing them. This is normal and good, but it doesn’t change the fact that Wiggins was fully permitted to use the substances he used.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2016, 10:25:49 am »
Only Wiggo looks dodgy so far.

How does he look dodgy? On rare occasions he took a medicine recommended by his doctor and formally permitted by the relevant authorities.

Even if he had taken triamcinolone illegally (which is in no way the case), it would have had a tiny effect on performance. It’s nothing like the oxygen-vector doping of the past, which made a mockery of racing.

I think it’s a disgrace that the Russians have hacked into medical records and confused millions of people about doping by publishing them in this way.

Meanwhile, the use of TUEs in cycling has fallen dramatically over the last few years as the authorities have become stricter with issuing them. This is normal and good, but it doesn’t change the fact that Wiggins was fully permitted to use the substances he used.
Well said.
Fully permitted, openly stated to the authorities and monitored.
<i>Marmite slave</i>

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #16 on: September 25, 2016, 01:21:38 pm »
It's dodgy as fuck.

His own doctor from Garmin days is basically saying WTF. St David of Millar is saying WTF. But again, several ex riders are saying the pattern of use and the timings mirrored their own abuse of this drug for performance gains.

It stinks. The really stinky bit is the granting of TUEs of a substance known to be a super effective PED. Did Wiggins need it for medical reasons? His former doctor says he would never have prescribed it.

I heard rumours a few years back that Sky abuse the TUE system to allow PED use. I don't find this news contradicting that rumour.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #17 on: September 25, 2016, 01:30:22 pm »
It stinks. The really stinky bit is the granting of TUEs of a substance known to be a super effective PED. Did Wiggins need it for medical reasons? His former doctor says he would never have prescribed it.

I heard rumours a few years back that Sky abuse the TUE system to allow PED use. I don't find this news contradicting that rumour.
and I'm sure that his FORMER doctor is entirely impartial on the subject :P I have opinions on how clean/dirty certain riders are, so do you; we're not impartial either.

Rumours schmumours. Whatever. You cant disprove rumours, just as you cant prove a negative.

You have to have some system of rules - or just give up and allow uncontrolled drug use. FanA or ForumUserB says "its dodgy as fuck" isnt a basis for enforcement, sorry.

Until a rider is proven guilty of breaking a rule, it's all just mud.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #18 on: September 25, 2016, 01:43:24 pm »
I am sure I’m not alone in feeling some sort of reluctance to take the obvious on board here. It’s a great story, now somewhat sullied :-(

My view: it was taken as a PED and not as an asthma treatment*

Have a read at the usual indications for use of IM triamcinolone (typically, severe “difficult” asthma, patients who are in and out of hospital for management).

*Even if he didn’t break any written rules.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #19 on: September 25, 2016, 01:45:36 pm »
Quite

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #20 on: September 25, 2016, 01:50:38 pm »
It stinks. The really stinky bit is the granting of TUEs of a substance known to be a super effective PED. Did Wiggins need it for medical reasons? His former doctor says he would never have prescribed it.

I heard rumours a few years back that Sky abuse the TUE system to allow PED use. I don't find this news contradicting that rumour.
and I'm sure that his FORMER doctor is entirely impartial on the subject :P I have opinions on how clean/dirty certain riders are, so do you; we're not impartial either.

Rumours schmumours. Whatever. You cant disprove rumours, just as you cant prove a negative.

You have to have some system of rules - or just give up and allow uncontrolled drug use. FanA or ForumUserB says "its dodgy as fuck" isnt a basis for enforcement, sorry.

Until a rider is proven guilty of breaking a rule, it's all just mud.

I'm not convinced you have much of a handle on this matt.

There is a 'system of rules' but as we know from Armstrong's backdated TUE after testing positive, UCI's attempt to bury Contador's clen pozzy, Froome's 'fast-tracked' TUE, Armistead's 3 missed tests and suddenly-reversal-of-automatic-ban-so-that-she-could-ride-the-Olympics,  the enforcement of these rules depends on who you are.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #21 on: September 25, 2016, 01:54:59 pm »
..... the granting of TUEs of a substance known to be a super effective PED. ........

Super effective PED?

Compared to what? Aspirin? EPO? Or super effective when compared to blood doping?

Did he have just one injection before the 3 week race?  If it was that good that it could be super effective over the 3 weeks, and it is legal to take, then I'm amazed that everyman and his dog is not having a quick jab of this stuff.

Interesting article by David Walsh in the Sunday Times today on the matter.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #22 on: September 25, 2016, 02:01:30 pm »
What makes you think everyman and his dog would be granted a TUE?

If you want to know more see what David Millar and Jorg Jakcse have to say...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #23 on: September 25, 2016, 02:07:37 pm »
I'm not convinced you have much of a handle on this matt.

There is a 'system of rules' but as we know from Armstrong's backdated TUE after testing positive, UCI's attempt to bury Contador's clen pozzy, Froome's 'fast-tracked' TUE, Armistead's 3 missed tests and suddenly-reversal-of-automatic-ban-so-that-she-could-ride-the-Olympics,  the enforcement of these rules depends on who you are.
I believe Armstrong n Contador were banned and lost TdeF titles. The system isnt perfect (of course) but it is there. Riders dope, some get caught (what's new?).

Throwing mud at your favourite dodgy rider based on your view of how other riders were treated is at best just gossip. It could be viewed as sour grapes, but I wouldnt like to accuse you of that.

The number of TUEs is dropping rapidly, which some would see as a good thing; or you could just keep slinging mud. Your choice!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2016, 02:15:23 pm »
Cognitive dissonance, Matt.

Tell me what has changed in cycling such that the favoritism meted out to current big name cash cow riders, is somehow different to the favoritism meted out to Armstrong and Contador. Remember too that the UCI did everything they could to hinder the prosecution of Armstrong and Contador.

It's not black and white, Matt.  It's shades of grey, and I'm sure you'd be the first to acknowledge that you struggle with that.  :demon: