Author Topic: Sky - gaming the system?  (Read 96081 times)

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1375 on: December 12, 2018, 03:26:34 pm »
Well!

unless they find one big magical new sponsor, this is certainly going to shake things up!

( Presumably there will be some younger GC riders at the other teams getting nervous about Froome/Thomas/et al coming onto the market. )



One other factor is that there is no longer any guarantee for Sky's salaries next autumn....which means a new owner/sponsor needs to be found in short order.

Do you mean nobody except GT and Bernal? [Sorry, I've made no effort to research these facts myself! ]

In order to make the licence application the team has to lodge 15% of the entire rider salary budget as a bank guarantee, Sky won't be lodging that, any new sponsor will have to, so as Flatus says they'll need to get a move on to secure the roster, determine the salary level and lodge the money.

Thing is, it's a bit of a chicken and egg situation, hard to get a sponsor without a confirmed roster, those riders out of contract won't sign if there's no sponsor. Jim Ochowicz managed it when BMC pulled the plug by poaching a sponsor, but he's had practice and CCC Team look nothing like BMC.

Thomas and Bernal are probably hunting through the small print of their contracts now to find out what the possibilities are.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1376 on: December 12, 2018, 03:32:31 pm »
What is the legal situation with a team offering new long contracts that it might have had reason to assume couldn't be honoured? After all they knew that Sky was changing hands and that the new corporate owners might have different ideas. The likes of GT and Bernal presumably had some interest from other teams - can their lawyers and managers now come back on Team Sky for misinformation or whatever or are team contracts written in favour of the sponsors options?

I doubt it, the writing was on the wall, historically Team Sky's annual accounts have always had the statement 'the sponsor has committed to the long term future funding of Team Sky', that statement was missing from the 2017 accounts.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1377 on: December 12, 2018, 08:26:19 pm »

Dr Richard Freeman pulls out of attending

Varnish's lawyer David Reade QC said an ongoing General Medical Council investigation into Freeman, a former Team Sky doctor, had caused his legal team to reconsider his attendance.

Freeman is due to appear at a GMC hearing in February to explain how a mystery delivery of testosterone arrived at Team Sky's headquarters in 2011.



Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1378 on: December 13, 2018, 12:16:58 pm »
Unless something I missed happened I doubt that any rider has a contract with Sky. The rider, or more likely a company that the rider is provided by ( most riders work this way for tax and other reasons) will have a contract with a company that has a contract with Sky, and with other sponsors. That’s the way pro cycling works.

The reasons for Sky not going forward are likely to include the Murdoch changes, but in reality the team has run its time as a publicity vehicle. It happened with Gillette in cricket as well, the brand was associated first and foremost with the sport in the consumer mind, not the sponso’s products. I’d say these are more important than any noise around Team Sky’s image.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1379 on: December 13, 2018, 12:48:00 pm »
What's the likelihood of there being a major British pro cycling team post SKY?
Destroying rainforest for economic gain is like burning a Renaissance painting to cook a meal.  EOW.

quixoticgeek

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1380 on: December 13, 2018, 01:50:03 pm »
What's the likelihood of there being a major British pro cycling team post SKY?

Probably, at a guess, unlikely. We'll all be scavenging for water among the ruined remains of a once great civilisation... Unless something massive changes between now and end of March...

In the unlikely event we don't have an apocalypse come April, then we're looking at someone with deep enough pockets to spring ~€30M, on a vanity project... What is currently team Sky may well get rescued, but I wouldn't put money on it being done so by someone with a British passport, blue or burgandy...

J
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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1381 on: December 13, 2018, 01:57:27 pm »
What's the likelihood of there being a major British pro cycling team post SKY?

Define British I guess. Team Sky were unique in that they started under the British Cycling umbrella. I guess it was a successful move, but the two have learnt how important it is to have walls between them.

Team Sky - HQ nominally in Manchester, actually run out of Belgium logistically. Uk registration with UCI. Team Principal British, otherwise less than 50% UK riders and staff.

There could be another UK registered team, Italian teams have been known to be UK or Irish registered. A cycling federation promoted team - I guess everyone has learnt.

mattc

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1382 on: December 13, 2018, 01:59:21 pm »
What's the likelihood of there being a major British pro cycling team post SKY?
PLenty of pundits have said this before me:

Given the current reputation that pro cycling has in the UK, a Bristish team would be very unlikely to get off the ground now.

(When Murdoch started this great adventure, things were very different - IIRC a bloke called Armstrong was still a 7-ttime Tour winner?? )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

quixoticgeek

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1383 on: December 13, 2018, 02:19:48 pm »

Mclaren just bought a 50% stake in Bahrain Merida. So that's one of the big British firms that could have stumped for former team sky, off the list.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/46536013

J
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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1384 on: December 13, 2018, 02:35:22 pm »
BT group?  They have a few billion £ knocking about...
Destroying rainforest for economic gain is like burning a Renaissance painting to cook a meal.  EOW.

mattc

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1385 on: December 13, 2018, 02:40:34 pm »

Mclaren just bought a 50% stake in Bahrain Merida. So that's one of the big British firms that could have stumped for former team sky, off the list.

https://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/46536013

J
"British" to the extent that they are 56% owned by the federal reserve of Bahrain!

(which I wouldn't have learned without following your link, QG  :thumbsup: )
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

quixoticgeek

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1386 on: December 13, 2018, 02:43:39 pm »
"British" to the extent that they are 56% owned by the federal reserve of Bahrain!

(which I wouldn't have learned without following your link, QG  :thumbsup: )

True. But British in that their team is registered with the FIA as UK...

Same as Red Bull are FIA registered in Austria, but are based in Milton Keynes...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1387 on: December 13, 2018, 04:48:17 pm »
Perhaps James Dyson could be tempted.
We are making a New World (Paul Nash, 1918)

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1388 on: December 13, 2018, 04:54:01 pm »
It's a flag of convenience. Sticking with the motorsport link it's well known the largest pool of experienced engineers, mechanics and support companies are within a 30 mile radius of Northampton so most companies are based near there - in F1 only Ferrari break that mould and even they have an engineering centre in the UK.

Cycling is 95% European, the riders, mechanics, races are all based in Europe so basing a team in Manchester and travelling to Europe every week makes no sense. Keep the admin and fitness centres at the velodrome (shared with British Cycling) but the team vehicles never have to enter Britian apart from tour de Yorkshire, Tour of Britain and perhaps the GB champs
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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1389 on: December 13, 2018, 05:41:30 pm »
Perhaps James Dyson could be tempted.

Not going so well at Bath RC

Mr Larrington

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1390 on: December 14, 2018, 02:41:43 pm »
It's a flag of convenience. Sticking with the motorsport link it's well known the largest pool of experienced engineers, mechanics and support companies are within a 30 mile radius of Northampton so most companies are based near there - in F1 only Ferrari break that mould and even they have an engineering centre in the UK.

Sauber?  Toro Rosso?  And Ferrari appear to have flogged off the GTO (Guildford Technical Office) to John Barnard in 1997.
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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1391 on: December 15, 2018, 01:11:50 pm »

Dr Richard Freeman pulls out of attending

Varnish's lawyer David Reade QC said an ongoing General Medical Council investigation into Freeman, a former Team Sky doctor, had caused his legal team to reconsider his attendance.

Freeman is due to appear at a GMC hearing in February to explain how a mystery delivery of testosterone arrived at Team Sky's headquarters in 2011.

Well he's given evidence anyway (in writing). My reading is that it backs Varnish's case, but the Judge doesn't rate his view as very significant:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/46560959

"Ex-British Cycling and Team Sky doctor Richard Freeman pulled out of appearing for Varnish on legal advice.

But Judge Ross accepted a written statement from Freeman at the Manchester tribunal on Thursday.

"The control by the coaches over the athletes was complete - cycling is a coach-led sport," wrote Freeman, heard on day three of the tribunal.

"The coach would decide everything. The athletes were very firmly controlled."

Sprinter Varnish, 28, was dropped from British Cycling's elite programme in 2016, after which former technical director Shane Sutton was found to have used sexist language towards her.

Sutton had already resigned though was later cleared of eight of nine allegations.

Varnish has to persuade the judge that she was effectively employed by British Cycling and the funding agency UK Sport before she can sue British Cycling for wrongful dismissal, sex discrimination and detriment to a whistle-blower.

The former European team sprint champion says British Cycling's control over her made it akin to her employer.

In his statement, Freeman said "non-compliance was not acceptable" because the coaches alone decided whether riders would stay on the programme.
"
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1392 on: December 15, 2018, 01:28:22 pm »
Cycling has run its course in terms of public interest. It's like rowing in that sense. Once we've got used to the novelty of success, the underlying impact is diminished. At one time a Vuelta win by a British rider would have caused major excitement, now we'd be hard-pushed to name which Yates won it.

Even without the negative publicity, Sky have seen diminishing returns as success has become assured.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1393 on: December 15, 2018, 01:42:29 pm »
Yates won with Mitchelton Scott. Their budget is less well-known. The public likes to see wins in Hockey and Netball, they'll give those a try, but it's bound to fade, even if the success continues.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1394 on: January 14, 2019, 07:45:35 pm »
Hot Flatus and everyone should be popping back in here very soon. This is going to be a very active thread.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1395 on: January 14, 2019, 07:51:02 pm »
<checks sports news>

Oh. Boy...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/46870091
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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1396 on: January 14, 2019, 08:18:49 pm »
Freeman was always going to be the weak link and writing his own doctor's note to dodge the parliamentary enquiry was pretty indicative of his ability (and willingness) to defend his past actions.

However, the fact he is facing proceedings from the GMC rather than WADA is akin to Al Capone being done for tax evasion rather than organised racketeering and murder.

Damn those pesky Bears  ;D

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1397 on: January 14, 2019, 08:50:06 pm »
Shame Veloman and his little sidekick, Samuel D, aren't here.

They could  remind us how Sky followed the rules, and then they can eat the shit pie I've prepared for them.

So woweee. Sky/BC doped. ::-)

Tell us something that wasn't absolutely obvious from the off.

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1398 on: January 14, 2019, 09:17:49 pm »
Tell us something that wasn't absolutely obvious from the off.

That they'd be caught?

Cudzoziemiec

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Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #1399 on: January 14, 2019, 09:22:31 pm »
The fact that an outfit called Fit4Sport is selling testosterone is indicative of the prevalence of PED use. 

However, the fact he is facing proceedings from the GMC rather than WADA is akin to Al Capone being done for tax evasion rather than organised racketeering and murder.
Presumably the GMC's powers are limited to striking him off and fining him, but a GMC tribunal wouldn't preclude charges from WADA.
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