Author Topic: Sky - gaming the system?  (Read 96655 times)

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2016, 02:16:31 pm »
What makes you think everyman and his dog would be granted a TUE?

If you want to know more see what David Millar and Jorg Jakcse have to say...

Are you suggesting that Wiggins/Sky received favourable treatment and other riders with record od medication needs for asthma would not have been able to obtain a TUE?  If so state it.

I've read the opinions of the folk you refer to and also read what Walsh has to say on the matter.

Now, back to my question which you have conveniently sidestepped, evidence for 'super effective PED' and compared to what?

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #26 on: September 25, 2016, 02:22:44 pm »
See previous reply. There have been many examples of top riders receiving favorable treatment with regards to PED use. I don't believe this has stopped just because British riders are now at the top, a British man is in charge of the UCI, and another Brit heads WADA.

For information on Wiggins choice of steroid see Miller's description.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #27 on: September 25, 2016, 02:31:48 pm »
MattC is right. There is an awful lot of mud slinging going on, not least by the BBC, which is very disappointing. I've just listened to 20 minutes on 5Live where the BBC put up as many people as they could to sling mud, and no-one to put the alternative view. I heard David Walsh saying "I believe...", "I suspect..." "In my opinion..."; no facts, just suspicion and innuendo.

TUEs are not just handed out by team doctors, the UCI or Wada, but have to be approved by independent medical professionals based on tests and examinations. Sky have abided by these rules.

Flaatus - what was Armtrsong's backdated TUE (they only came into effect in 2005)?


Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2016, 02:49:25 pm »
Sorry, you are correct, it predates the TUE system. It was a backdated prescription given to him after he tested positive for cortisone in 99. Armstrong alleges the president of the UCI enabled it.

But no. It's not just mud slinging.  It is informed comment from people involved in the sport. If you triangulate what Millar, Steffen and Jaksche are saying it really doesn't look good.

Wiggins's own statements are unconvincing. Prior to the hack release he claimed never having had injections other than vaccinations. Now we find he's whacked a fuck load of PEDS prior to riding GTS. 

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2016, 03:06:04 pm »
It seems likely that there's a selection process at work here — if asthmatic cyclists are the only ones who can legitimately use steroids, then we can expect to find a lot of asthmatic cyclists at the elite end of the sport. This could well have been an unconscious process rather than a deliberate strategy, but who knows? There are a lot of people in the sport who are cynical enough to have spotted the opportunity.

(As an asthmatic cyclist myself, I sympathize, but since I don't race I can just keep the intensity low enough to avoid having to cough up buckets of mucus out of my lungs after every ride.)

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #30 on: September 25, 2016, 03:34:06 pm »
See .......... etc

I.ve read Miller's comments and note the medication is available to all riders via a TUE if required and neither Wiggins or Sky broke any rules and WADA did not express any concern.

Of course, there will always be those who do not believe that man landed on the moon or such like and conspiracy theory will abound.

Do you think Wiggins should relinquish his TdF title?

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #31 on: September 25, 2016, 03:42:49 pm »
See .......... etc

I.ve read Miller's comments and note the medication is available to all riders via a TUE if required and neither Wiggins or Sky broke any rules and WADA did not express any concern.

Of course, there will always be those who do not believe that man landed on the moon or such like and conspiracy theory will abound.

Do you think Wiggins should relinquish his TdF title?

I find your faith in sporting governing bodies rather quaint.
Equally, I don't doubt that you hold all those conspiracy theorists that doubted Lance Armstrong, in equal contempt.

Of course, there will always be those who have a Pavlovian response to a British flag.


LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #32 on: September 25, 2016, 03:49:00 pm »
It is a bit too early to find out if somebody is doping/ gaming the system. Isn't the statute of limitations eight years?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #33 on: September 25, 2016, 04:00:46 pm »
The problem with Wiggo is not that he broke the rules but that his statements have a ring of "I did not have sexual relations with that woman" about them.

Or, worse, a ring of "I never tested positive".

There's a big difference between the revelations about Froome, which go no further than confirming what we knew already, and the revelations about Wiggo, which show that he has been disingenuous, if not an outright liar.

Anyone who is not concerned by this because he didn't break the letter of the law is beyond naive.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #34 on: September 25, 2016, 04:15:42 pm »
It seems likely that there's a selection process at work here — if asthmatic cyclists are the only ones who can legitimately use steroids, then we can expect to find a lot of asthmatic cyclists at the elite end of the sport. This could well have been an unconscious process rather than a deliberate strategy, but who knows?

Interesting idea. Professional sport is certainly cynical enough that it could be possible.

I don't have chronic asthma myself but I've experienced exercise induced asthma a few times - most notably at the end of a triathlon a couple of years ago when I'd really pushed myself too hard. Based on my experience, I find it fairly easy to believe that perfectly healthy cyclists with no history of asthma can discover they are susceptible to asthma attacks under the extreme duress of racing conditions.

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #35 on: September 25, 2016, 04:37:06 pm »
On rare occasions he took a medicine recommended by his doctor and formally permitted by the relevant authorities.

It's worth noting that the particular drug isn't tested for out of competition, so no TUE would be sought. I'm not suggesting that Wiggo did use the drug on other occasions, only that we wouldn't know about it if he did.

Quote
I think it’s a disgrace that the Russians have hacked into medical records

Agreed, but again, I'd go back to what I said about Froome - there have been no new revelations about him, suggesting that he has been fully transparent as he has claimed. Whereas the revelations about Wiggo are not only new, they contradict things he has said in the past. This isn't rumour or mud-slinging, it's a simple observation of facts. And given the history of the sport, I think it's fair to be concerned by the revelations.

Quote
Wiggins was fully permitted to use the substances he used.

True, but it's not the legality of his use that's being questioned, it's why that particular drug (a known PED) at that particular time (just before the Tour) - mainly because it follows a known pattern of use for non-medicinal reasons. Legal or not, that is disappointing.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #36 on: September 25, 2016, 04:52:36 pm »
......... Of course, there will always be those who have a Pavlovian response to a British flag.

OK, I'll try again.  Do you think Wiggins should relinquish his TdF title?

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #37 on: September 25, 2016, 05:04:28 pm »
What makes you think I should answer every question you pose? Especially when phrased in such a patronising manner.

I think as far as the concept of clean sport is concerned, all GT winners should relinquish their titles. That doesn't mean that I don't watch the races....but I have the background knowledge to know that what I am watching is a circus.

Think of pro cycling as akin to WWE Wrestling, and you'll be about there.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #38 on: September 25, 2016, 05:26:41 pm »
Well if you think he cheated then I assume you would wish to see his title go to someone else, but you can't bring yourself to answer a simple question. A life in politics awaits you.

Also, past experience suggests that doping was not restricted to GT winners but also to those supporting those who won. So I assume if you condemn all GT winners then you must also be condemning quite a few other cyclists who have never won anything but simply worked for a team leader.

Quite cynical and appalling stereotyping IMO which I'm sure you would argue against if such a stance was to be directed against folk in other walks of life.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #39 on: September 25, 2016, 05:32:17 pm »
With professional cycling in the past few decades, it has been more accurate to assume doped, unless shown otherwise, for 'surprisingly good performances'. When do you think we should swap that approach back to 'innocent unless proven guilty'?
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #40 on: September 25, 2016, 05:35:46 pm »
Also, past experience suggests that doping was not restricted to GT winners but also to those supporting those who won.


Quite cynical and appalling stereotyping IMO which I'm sure you would argue against if such a stance was to be directed against folk in other walks of life.

The only thing that doesn't make those two statements contradictory is your implication that doping only took place in the past.

So what's changed? A Brit in charge of WADA and another one in charge of UCI (who's son works for Sky)?

Move along, nothing to see here.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #41 on: September 25, 2016, 05:49:06 pm »
Still no answer!

The "move along ......" comment is very apposite to the whole story in many ways as the use was justified by UCI and WADA. Of course, conspiracy theorists will say the British folk in positions of authority were 'bent' and turned a blind eye, but hardly supported by evidence.

I believe John Fahey was WADA boss in 2012. Australian I believe.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #42 on: September 25, 2016, 06:07:22 pm »
To be blunt, the questions you pose which remain unanswered do so because they are facile, and really don't merit an answer.  I'm beginning to suspect that perhaps, like mattc, you struggle with nuance, and need a more binary paradigm. 

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #43 on: September 25, 2016, 06:32:00 pm »
With professional cycling in the past few decades, it has been more accurate to assume doped, unless shown otherwise, for 'surprisingly good performances'. When do you think we should swap that approach back to 'innocent unless proven guilty'?
Whenever you want to. Or never, if you prefer.   

It makes no difference to how sport actually works. There may be shades of grey in riders' morals, ethics, or degrees of cheating. (In fact I'm certain there are - happy Flatus??)

But the races depend on simple facts. Who won? One rider per race. Did he/she cheat? Yes or no.  That is it.

Within that system you cant have "hans probably cheated", becuase then you don't have a winner. Even if EVERYONE thinks that Hans Probably Cheated, until it's proven - under whatever current system is in place - he keeps his race wins.


If Dave/James/etc are all convinced that nearly everyone is cheating well ...  fine ... you may well be right ... but so what? We're unlikely to find out actually during any race EXACTLY how much dope any rider is on - let alone ALL the riders. So what does it add to our enjopyment of the race? It's an open question.  The sport seems very different to WWE in that respect, cos all the cheating is there in front of the camera for us in WWE!
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #44 on: September 25, 2016, 06:42:54 pm »
Still no answer!

When the questions are so fatuous...

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #45 on: September 25, 2016, 07:07:20 pm »
Question is simple. If folk believe what Wiggins did was cheating, then do they believe he should be stripped of his title?

Fatuous, facile or whatever you want to say, the fact remains there seems little appetite to answer a simple question regarding the use of what some consider to be a PED rather than medication.

I can't understand why there is such reluctance to answer a very simple question.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #46 on: September 25, 2016, 07:12:03 pm »
Interesting piece by David Walsh in the Sunday Times.   Worth a read.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #47 on: September 25, 2016, 07:14:29 pm »
Interesting piece by David Walsh in the Sunday Times.   Worth a read.

See #22 on p1 of thread.

Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #48 on: September 25, 2016, 07:15:14 pm »
There is a 'system of rules' but as we know from Armstrong's backdated TUE after testing positive, UCI's attempt to bury Contador's clen pozzy, Froome's 'fast-tracked' TUE, Armistead's 3 missed tests and suddenly-reversal-of-automatic-ban-so-that-she-could-ride-the-Olympics,  the enforcement of these rules depends on who you are.
Except that one of Armitstead's missed tests was accepted as having been missed by the UCI official, not her: she was available & where she was supposed to be. And one of the other two was a filing error not a true missed test. So she missed two (one on a technicality).
"A woman on a bicycle has all the world before her where to choose; she can go where she will, no man hindering." The Type-Writer Girl, 1897

citoyen

  • Cat 6 Racer
Re: Sky - gaming the system?
« Reply #49 on: September 25, 2016, 07:21:21 pm »
I can't understand why there is such reluctance to answer a very simple question.

And you suggest others would be well suited to a career in politics.