Author Topic: Base training  (Read 171534 times)

Re: Base training
« Reply #2175 on: 17 February, 2021, 07:45:59 pm »
TrainerRoad claim that improving your FTP will improve performance on every type of cycling event from track sprints to gran fondo

I think it is broadly right because riders who are fast in long distance time trials are almost invariably also fast over shorter distances.  However, there is some scope to change the shape of the curve a bit by focusing on a particular segment of it and neglecting another.

I’m sure they will not have focused on FTP only, and therefore shorter efforts.

My point was that you can focus soley on improving your ftp and indeed succeed in that task. But when it comes to longer durations over many hours , if you’ve neglected that side , you may end up slower.

Karla

  • car(e) free
    • Lost Byway - around the world by bike
Re: Base training
« Reply #2176 on: 18 February, 2021, 12:43:28 am »
TrainerRoad claim that improving your FTP will improve performance on every type of cycling event from track sprints to gran fondo

I think it is broadly right because riders who are fast in long distance time trials are almost invariably also fast over shorter distances.  However, there is some scope to change the shape of the curve a bit by focusing on a particular segment of it and neglecting another.

Bear in mind that even a 10 is largely an endurance effort. 

Re: Base training
« Reply #2177 on: 18 February, 2021, 08:27:32 am »
TrainerRoad claim that improving your FTP will improve performance on every type of cycling event from track sprints to gran fondo

I think it is broadly right because riders who are fast in long distance time trials are almost invariably also fast over shorter distances.  However, there is some scope to change the shape of the curve a bit by focusing on a particular segment of it and neglecting another.

I’m sure they will not have focused on FTP only, and therefore shorter efforts.

My point was that you can focus soley on improving your ftp and indeed succeed in that task. But when it comes to longer durations over many hours , if you’ve neglected that side , you may end up slower.

Yes, but I think we're saying slightly different things. 

That would be an example of someone's curve having taken a particular shape by deliberately avoiding training for longer events. So yes, I would agree that, if you make a special effort not to be any good at events of more than an hour, you could well achieve that.  So someone who trains for 10s and does lots of VO2 max and intervals, but never rides for over two hours wouldn't be much good over a 24.  And lots of people do that and don't bother with long events (which is why I phrased it the way round that I did - while pretty much everyone who is fast over long events is also fast over short ones, not everyone who is fast over short events is fast over long ones, as most don't do them).

But is such a person not fast over long events because they don't have the fitness, or is it because they don't have the conditioning?  I suspect it is the latter because it is usually relatively easy for someone who is fast over short distances to become fast over long ones just by doing a few longer rides.


fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Base training
« Reply #2178 on: 18 February, 2021, 09:07:03 am »
The plan I'm currently doing is "3 day stage race". My Zwift Race performance is diminishing- my sprint is poorer and I can't hold my FTP+10% (race climbing pace) as long. This is expected- I'm not training those parts of the curve.

I'd expect it much more that way round than the other- if I were training for shorter efforts, it would have less of a negative effect on longer efforts.
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Base training
« Reply #2179 on: 18 February, 2021, 09:23:27 am »
The plan I'm currently doing is "3 day stage race". My Zwift Race performance is diminishing- my sprint is poorer and I can't hold my FTP+10% (race climbing pace) as long. This is expected- I'm not training those parts of the curve.

One word: Gorby.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2180 on: 18 February, 2021, 09:26:21 am »
I think endurance / fatigue resistance takes longer to fade, but fade it does.  Three years ago I had my highest ftp, and yet I was struggling at the longer distances.  I’d been doing the intervals and neglecting the longer training rides. Reducing the number of high intensity sessions and bringing the longer “training” rides back has done wonders for endurance since.

I think my top end goes relatively quickly but also comes back relatively quickly.  My endurance fades more slowly but takes longer to bring back.

I’m happier with a lower ftp if my endurance / fatigue resistance and resilience over multi hour or day events is better. As for sprint power, it’s none existent, but it’s not important for the rides I like doing.


fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Base training
« Reply #2181 on: 18 February, 2021, 09:28:16 am »
The plan I'm currently doing is "3 day stage race". My Zwift Race performance is diminishing- my sprint is poorer and I can't hold my FTP+10% (race climbing pace) as long. This is expected- I'm not training those parts of the curve.

One word: Gorby.
Except I don't mind- the thing I actually want to train is longer distance. I'm happy to sacrifice virtual medals for 3 day less-uncomfort on events I really care about.
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Base training
« Reply #2182 on: 18 February, 2021, 09:32:43 am »
In that case, you don't really want anything other than junk miles.  :)

Re: Base training
« Reply #2183 on: 25 February, 2021, 05:11:04 pm »
I think the argument about TR pushing you too hard might be somewhat different in the near future:
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/introducing-adaptive-training-the-right-workout-every-time/

Sounds interesting.  I'd definitely sign up, if I were training.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2184 on: 25 February, 2021, 05:44:26 pm »
Adaptive training is at start of the hype cycle




Re: Base training
« Reply #2185 on: 25 February, 2021, 07:07:36 pm »
I think the argument about TR pushing you too hard might be somewhat different in the near future:
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/introducing-adaptive-training-the-right-workout-every-time/

Sounds interesting.  I'd definitely sign up, if I were training.

If you're still on the grandfathered sub then you won't need to sign up.  Existing subs continue at no additional cost.

Purely anecdotal but even with the existing "dumb" plans I'm doing stuff I could only have dreamt of until now.  My FTP is up 40w on pre TR levels and I'm occasionally getting the "magic carpet" effect out on the road.  Whether it will last.... ;D

Re: Base training
« Reply #2186 on: 26 February, 2021, 08:46:00 am »
I think the argument about TR pushing you too hard might be somewhat different in the near future:
https://www.trainerroad.com/blog/introducing-adaptive-training-the-right-workout-every-time/

Sounds interesting.  I'd definitely sign up, if I were training.

If you're still on the grandfathered sub then you won't need to sign up.  Existing subs continue at no additional cost.

Purely anecdotal but even with the existing "dumb" plans I'm doing stuff I could only have dreamt of until now.  My FTP is up 40w on pre TR levels and I'm occasionally getting the "magic carpet" effect out on the road.  Whether it will last.... ;D
The adaptive stuff requires you to ask to join the program. My subscription expired while I was injured - I contacted them saying I didn't want to lose the grandfather, but I didn't know when I would next able to ride, and they said I could resume on my old plan when healthy. Quality customer service.  :thumbsup:

Re: Base training
« Reply #2187 on: 26 February, 2021, 09:53:13 am »
Did a ramp test a couple of days ago.  Ftp came out pretty much same as last July at my peak.  So high intensity (getting up to 90-92% max HR) rest low intensity (under 70% max HR) once a week was enough to maintain it all these months.  Planning to restart building on Monday.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2188 on: 26 February, 2021, 10:08:51 am »
The adaptive stuff requires you to ask to join the program. My subscription expired while I was injured - I contacted them saying I didn't want to lose the grandfather, but I didn't know when I would next able to ride, and they said I could resume on my old plan when healthy. Quality customer service.  :thumbsup:

 :thumbsup:

Let's hope that's soon!

Re: Base training
« Reply #2189 on: 26 February, 2021, 11:09:28 am »
Did a ramp test a couple of days ago.  Ftp came out pretty much same as last July at my peak.  So high intensity (getting up to 90-92% max HR) rest low intensity (under 70% max HR) once a week was enough to maintain it all these months.  Planning to restart building on Monday.

Interesting: polarised training. 

But is maintaining fitness at a steady level a good thing?  I'd understood that:
- we are always either getting fitter or less fit
- we can't continue to get fit for ever or else you burn out.
Hence an off-season fall in fitness is essential in order to enable higher fitness the following season.

EDIT maybe FTP <> fitness, so perhaps its a different point.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2190 on: 26 February, 2021, 02:05:35 pm »
Did a ramp test a couple of days ago.  Ftp came out pretty much same as last July at my peak.  So high intensity (getting up to 90-92% max HR) rest low intensity (under 70% max HR) once a week was enough to maintain it all these months.  Planning to restart building on Monday.

Interesting: polarised training. 

But is maintaining fitness at a steady level a good thing?  I'd understood that:
- we are always either getting fitter or less fit
- we can't continue to get fit for ever or else you burn out.
Hence an off-season fall in fitness is essential in order to enable higher fitness the following season.

EDIT maybe FTP <> fitness, so perhaps its a different point.

I don’t see why maintaining equilibrium would be an issue. You’re not trying to get fitter for ever and load is actually very sustainable.   I haven’t seen anywhere state you need a fall in fitness to get fitter the next year.  In fact let it fall too far and you’ll spend half your season just trying to get back to where you were. You’re just consolidating your fitness on a plateau for a few months, rather than rolling back down the mountain in your off season. Then next season starting at the bottom of the same mountain again.  Never progressing year on year but just oscillating up and down as the years pass.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2191 on: 02 March, 2021, 08:34:04 pm »
Interesting article, particularly if you ride longer distances.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2407295/why-higher-vo2max-isnt-always-better#close

Bernster

  • ACME (Herts Branch)
Re: Base training
« Reply #2192 on: 03 March, 2021, 09:01:49 am »
Interesting article, particularly if you ride longer distances.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2407295/why-higher-vo2max-isnt-always-better#close

That was an interesting read, thanks for sharing Phil - might go some way to explain why I'm able to FTP test relatively high with a ramp, but that doesn't translate into being able to ride correspondingly quickly at Audax pace for days on end. That said, there's probably not a great deal I can do about it given how limited my training time is, so I'll work on the basis that a mix of sweet spot and Vo2 max sessions are better than nothing.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2193 on: 03 March, 2021, 09:17:15 am »
Interesting article, particularly if you ride longer distances.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2407295/why-higher-vo2max-isnt-always-better#close
On the subject of riding longer distances over lifetime, living longer is also a strategy worth considering

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29293447/

Re: Base training
« Reply #2194 on: 03 March, 2021, 09:21:43 am »
Interesting article. 
CImax sounds a lot like the aerobic threshold, or the point at which you start accumulating lactate. https://endurancebikeandrun.com/blog/2020/2/6/why-is-aerobic-threshold-important

fboab

  • It's a fecking serious business, riding a bike
Re: Base training
« Reply #2195 on: 03 March, 2021, 09:31:58 am »
Did a ramp test a couple of days ago.  Ftp came out pretty much same as last July at my peak.  So high intensity (getting up to 90-92% max HR) rest low intensity (under 70% max HR) once a week was enough to maintain it all these months.  Planning to restart building on Monday.

Interesting: polarised training. 

But is maintaining fitness at a steady level a good thing?  I'd understood that:
- we are always either getting fitter or less fit
- we can't continue to get fit for ever or else you burn out.
Hence an off-season fall in fitness is essential in order to enable higher fitness the following season.

EDIT maybe FTP <> fitness, so perhaps its a different point.

Fit =/= strong. You can stay fit forever but you won't increase your strength forever?
TSS is not Total Sex Score, Chris!

Re: Base training
« Reply #2196 on: 03 March, 2021, 10:17:47 am »
Interesting article, particularly if you ride longer distances.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2407295/why-higher-vo2max-isnt-always-better#close
On the subject of riding longer distances over lifetime, living longer is also a strategy worth considering

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29293447/

I think that’s more about extending the healthy years rather than overall years.  Though there is extension of the latter towards “genetic potential”

Re: Base training
« Reply #2197 on: 08 March, 2021, 05:35:17 pm »
I think this fits here..
I'm Riding up hills (virtually) right now for training.
I take notes of the meters of accent/time for a given effort.
Some of the programmes have false flats and varying degrees of pitch, but by and large, the watts put in seems to very closely correlate across the board.
The weight of the rider and a bike is accounted for in the programme.
If I add 10 kilos to my weight for a loaded bike will this likely give a real world scenario on the programme or is it more complicated than that?
often lost.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2198 on: 08 March, 2021, 06:12:55 pm »
I you add 10kg to your weight, your avatar will move more slowly, especially uphill.  Putting out, say, 200w will/should feel like putting out 200w irrespective of your weight or speed.

I can see the point of loading up your panniers with bricks and riding IRL to accustomise yourself to the handling of the bike and align your expectations of speed, but there is zero value of doing so in, say, Zwift.

Re: Base training
« Reply #2199 on: 09 March, 2021, 11:03:47 am »
Interesting article, particularly if you ride longer distances.

https://www.outsideonline.com/2407295/why-higher-vo2max-isnt-always-better#close
On the subject of riding longer distances over lifetime, living longer is also a strategy worth considering

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/29293447/

I think that’s more about extending the healthy years rather than overall years.  Though there is extension of the latter towards “genetic potential”

I looked into this some time back. It’s difficult to be accurate because, for instance, someone who retires at 55 might train better than they did at 25.
However, the quick take from research would indicate that we lose about 1% or so of power potential for each year over our optimum age ( which obviously varies between individuals). There’s also a reduction in optimal cadence as well.
Don’t ask me to dig through all the mire of research again to justify my comments. I seem to recall that much of it was Australian, and that a lot of the work related to swimmers.