Author Topic: Cheating - maybe?  (Read 19195 times)

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #125 on: September 07, 2019, 08:38:06 am »
If the pacer wasn’t also riding PBP, then it is cheating.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #126 on: September 07, 2019, 01:21:14 pm »
It looks like the fastest woman was paced round PBP by someone who wasn't even entered in the event.

Not sure whether that breaks any rules or is considered as 'cheating' but to me it definitely doesn't feel 'right'.
I'm getting "activity doesnae exist" (or similar); maybe someone realised how incriminating this strava log is??
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #127 on: September 07, 2019, 01:26:32 pm »
If the pacer wasn’t also riding PBP, then it is cheating.

Under AUK rules it would be. Can’t see anything about it the PBP regulations.

Definitely falls under taking the piss if it was planned.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #128 on: September 07, 2019, 04:07:01 pm »
Article 18 of the regulations covers it:

Quote
Drafting with someone not taking part in the event

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #129 on: September 07, 2019, 04:13:37 pm »
It looks like the fastest woman was paced round PBP by someone who wasn't even entered in the event.

Not sure whether that breaks any rules or is considered as 'cheating' but to me it definitely doesn't feel 'right'.
I'm getting "activity doesnae exist" (or similar); maybe someone realised how incriminating this strava log is??

Agreed.  Taken down since this morning.  Maybe Carlos is a member here.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #130 on: September 07, 2019, 08:19:32 pm »
I still don't know what I think about  'Ultra Racers'. I've been trying to persuade myself that they aren't a construct, brought about by a combination of the industry, trade and media.

I'm coming to the view that they're the cycling version of 'The Gladiators' and their modern assault course equivalents. They seem to be pretty accomplished athletes, but have some cartoon characteristics. The Adventure Syndicate seem especially keen on 'Busy single mothers', who have to coordinate their adventures with caring for a teenage daughter.

It surprises me that someone would use a pacer on PBP. I'd have thought that even a relative novice would pick up enough knowledge of Audax group riding in the qualifiers to realise that there's be plenty of people to ride with on an event such as PBP. But as I say, I've got no real knowledge of the 'Ultra' scene.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #131 on: September 07, 2019, 08:37:40 pm »
Pacing of any kind is banned on Ultras*, so it's got nothing to do with that.

I'm pretty certain Ultra riders are just people. HTH.

(* Except between officially entered pairs, other loopholes may apply, etc)

zigzag

  • unfuckwithable
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #132 on: September 07, 2019, 08:44:32 pm »
at the pace she rode the groups are few and far between. i rode at similar pace and spent at least 500k soloing in no man's land.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #133 on: September 07, 2019, 08:50:21 pm »
Pacing of any kind is banned on Ultras*, so it's got nothing to do with that.

I'm pretty certain Ultra riders are just people. HTH.

(* Except between officially entered pairs, other loopholes may apply, etc)

As I say, I know very little about Ultras, and can only rely on research, and interviewing the participants.

Quote
The Transatlantic Way is impressive on its own. It is typical of ultra cycling, or long-distance races. The organisers do a lot of behind the scenes work leaving the limelight focused tightly on the adventure. And that’s the point. Rides like this, Race Across France, the TCR and other adventure cycle races are all about the rider, the bike and leaving the comfort zone of the coffee ride miles and miles behind. It’s not even about ‘racing’, it is more about just doing it and finishing. Self-supported all the way with a race tracker for those dot followers out there is all you should look for. But, even here, Ana’s story was different.
 
“Alex and I were working really well as a team, he in effect drafted me for the first half of the race, whilst putting up with severe pain from ligament damage in his knee. Eventually he took the hard decision to pull out. But I kept going anyway. I finished it. The last part was just unnecessarily painful – when you’re tired and you can see the finish, but the route is a zigzag, that hurts more.”
 
The TransAtlantic Way was won by Bjoern Lehard, with Ana coming in four days behind him, but still one of the fastest female finishers. She shrugs. You get the feeling that the shrug is heartfelt. Long distance cyclists might shrug a lot. Everything is just another one of those things – they are a breed apart and simply knuckle down to sucking up the miles.
https://www.justridethebike.com/this-mum-rides


Perhaps the Maindru photos can shed some light. Those and the unofficial results, which should show who else was around.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #134 on: September 07, 2019, 09:38:32 pm »

Quote

Perhaps the Maindru photos can shed some light. Those and the unofficial results, which should show who else was around.

There are non, they would be few and far between in any case. I was rather to the front in the first half and could find few of myself.
I think I crossed paths a few times with her in the first bit but need a picture of her kit and bike on the day to be sure and comment.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #135 on: September 07, 2019, 09:52:11 pm »

Quote

Perhaps the Maindru photos can shed some light. Those and the unofficial results, which should show who else was around.

There are none, they would be few and far between in any case. I was rather to the front in the first half and could find few of myself.
I think I crossed paths a few times with her in the first bit but need a picture of her kit and bike on the day to be sure and comment.

So I found a picture of her in Brest on the bridge

Time of passing on the bridge is correct for her Brest passing time. Its the lady in pink on the left.

She started in B group as did I, I was sitting rather to the front(20th) for most of the earlier part to avoid the shoulder rubbing. I saw here quite often in the begining. She actually led the bunch on several occasions and came past the group in the wind back to the front when she had fallen back a bit(due to hills or speed surges)

I actually thought this girl(she looked younger then her age from the side profile) is either very strong or very stupid(it seems to be the first). She came pas several times in the wind to get back to front positions, actually pulling at the front and even trying to pull away on her own often on her time trial bars. She must have past me at least 5 to 10 times in the first 100 k's catching lots of wind in the process didn't seem to be riding with anyone around that time. I actually found she could have sheltered a lot more in the then still sizable bunch as lazy me did.

Can tell for later on she got shelled on one of the hills and then she passed me again unseen when I was having pasta and a Shower near Carhaix.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #136 on: September 07, 2019, 10:09:46 pm »
There's a German report somewhere on the net confirming that Ana was paced by Carlos.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #137 on: September 07, 2019, 10:33:59 pm »
There's a German report somewhere on the net confirming that Ana was paced by Carlos.

The guy with a double 0 cap in the brest picture looks a lot like Carlos. Don't remember him from the early bits, bt then a lady sticks more to your mind.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #138 on: September 07, 2019, 10:48:40 pm »
Carlos on Instagram and Strava.

The deleted activity was "Ana's challenge PBP in 51h 02min".

And no he doesn't exist on the PBP tracker.

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #139 on: September 08, 2019, 07:49:31 am »
Lack of photos is explained by lack of front numberplate/ helmet sticker.

LittleWheelsandBig

  • Whimsy Rider
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #140 on: September 08, 2019, 08:56:17 am »
I wonder if Carlos shows up in the Maindru slush pile of photos without identifiable numbers. It is a couple of hours to go through them all.
Wheel meet again, don't know where, don't know when...

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #141 on: September 08, 2019, 09:48:44 am »

Oddly I maxed out at Barregarow when I rode the mountain circuit rather than on the mountain and at a paltry 62kmh.
Max speed on the way off the mountain was at Kate's cottage at 60kmh and I was on the brakes for Creag-na-ba not long after that; I remember being unsettled on the approach for some reason and on reaching it realizing just how much road there was available to me once I was there.
I had a northerly, so a cross wind to windy corner and then a tail wind briefly before the hill hid me from it.

So would be interested to know where on the descent you recorded 116kmh!

When I did the TT course on my Brompton, I hit just under 70kph down hill somewhere on the west of the Island. I had been really looking forward to the downhill towards Douglas from Kappel gate, only I turned the corner, hit the wind, and had to pedal downhill to make any progress.

The biggest issue of course with high speeds on the Brompton, is if you slam on the brakes, it does kinda fold up...

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #142 on: September 08, 2019, 01:03:20 pm »
Ana's story is an interesting one. She mentioned that she'd done the Dean 300 as a qualifier, and articles on her mention a partner called Alex, who trained her. She's based in Cheltenham, and her job involves exercising racehorses. I find that interesting, but it doesn't seem to figure in the profiles of her.

She told me that her horse-riding gives her core strength, and that she favours climbing. Her results in local hillclimbs, and in the Trans-Pyrenees event confirm that. The Trans-Pyrenees is from the same stable as TCR. Her strong placing in the T-P marked her out was the most in-form female ultra rider at PBP.

She's late to cycling, she told me that she'd taken it up in the last three years, and that accords with Hofnar's outline of her riding style, which lacks tactical nous. There are references online to Ana receiving a bursary to attend Emily Chappell's Adventure Syndicate training camp in Girona, and to sponsorship for her bike.

I wonder if Alex rode the qualifiers, and had any PBP ambitions? If Carlos really did pace Ana, was he a substitute for Alex?

As there's no prize fund, it's difficult to 'follow the money'. The only obvious commercial aspect to PBP is through brand enhancement. Marko Baloh finished PBP wearing a shirt promoting his coaching business. Victor Decoard, who rode for Singer in 2015, and appeared with his partner Sina in the 'Brevet' film, fielded a 'Cycles Victor' team, which included former PBP organiser Jean-Gualbert Faburel.

TCR had generated a lot of interest, thanks to Fiona Kolbinger. Fiona had declared that she was going treat PBP as a party. She had clearly enjoyed that aspect of LEL. The TCR had finished in Brest, and had primed press interest. L'Equipe deployed a staff photographer to PBP.

Pacing at PBP is an interesting subject in itself. The early editions were paced, with pacers leap-frogging the lead riders by train. Pacing by a single rider, who rides the entire course is legal, if the pacer is entered, but illegal if the pacer has no number. The difficulties of entering PBP 2019 upset many plans.

So the key questions are: Was Ana paced, and if so by whom? If she was paced, who arranged it? If she was paced, how has it come to light?

One response to 'cheating' at PBP is 'Why would anyone do it. it's not a race, so they're only cheating themselves'. The cluster of quasi-commercial interests surrounding PBP provide an answer to that question.

It's ironic that the shift to Rambouillet, and changes in the organisation of PBP, reasserted the amateur nature of PBP. Much of the professional gloss of previous editions came from the St Quentin authorities. PBP 19 was more of a bare-bones affair.

FifeingEejit

  • Not Small
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #143 on: September 08, 2019, 01:23:02 pm »
When I did the TT course on my Brompton, I hit just under 70kph down hill somewhere on the west of the Island. I had been really looking forward to the downhill towards Douglas from Kappel gate, only I turned the corner, hit the wind, and had to pedal downhill to make any progress.

The biggest issue of course with high speeds on the Brompton, is if you slam on the brakes, it does kinda fold up...

J

That's a bugger, the very same bit where Yanto recorded that speed.
I didn't know Bromptons don't lock the mechanism  :o

I note that Greenrock have applied for and got the road closure over the mountain for this years CC.

Biggest surprise I got on the course wasn't on the bike, or even the 4x4 my Dad had brought over... no it was in the motorhome, the clatter it made going over the key of Ballaugh Bridge at less than 30...
Also Bray hill is bloody steep when the lights at the bottom have just turned red and you're death gripping crappy Tektro rim brakes...


I don't watch the TT any more...


Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #144 on: September 08, 2019, 03:02:29 pm »
Ana's story is an interesting one. She mentioned that she'd done the Dean 300 as a qualifier, and articles on her mention a partner called Alex, who trained her.

Could be Alex Napier (B083), a very nice chap who I met on The Dean 300K this year. He is very strong indeed and his Varruu Ti bike has been advertised on the back cover of Arrivée (this is how I recognised Alex in the Peartree services car park the night before the Dean). Looks like Alex started at the same time as Ana, was a registered rider and finished in a fantastic time - well done to both.

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #145 on: September 08, 2019, 03:06:01 pm »
Ana's story is an interesting one. She mentioned that she'd done the Dean 300 as a qualifier, and articles on her mention a partner called Alex, who trained her. She's based in Cheltenham, and her job involves exercising racehorses. I find that interesting, but it doesn't seem to figure in the profiles of her.

She told me that her horse-riding gives her core strength, and that she favours climbing. Her results in local hillclimbs, and in the Trans-Pyrenees event confirm that. The Trans-Pyrenees is from the same stable as TCR. Her strong placing in the T-P marked her out was the most in-form female ultra rider at PBP.

Corrections Corner (Pyreneean Departement):
There is understandable confusion between
- TPR (the new event in Oct 2019, from the Transcon stable* i.e. MikeHall/Anna et al, held under pretty much the TCR rules) &
- The Trans-Pyrenees race, held earlier this year by a totally unrelated bunch. 2019 MAY be the 1st edition, I'm not sure.

*Nice pun.
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

mattc

  • n.b. have grown beard since photo taken
    • Didcot Audaxes
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #146 on: September 08, 2019, 03:10:30 pm »
Pacing of any kind is banned on Ultras*, so it's got nothing to do with that.

Except for the races where it isn't.

Watch the first bit of Inspired to Ride (possibly the most watched ultra-racing docco yet made).
Has never ridden RAAM
---------
No.11  Because of the great host of those who dislike the least appearance of "swank " when they travel the roads and lanes. - From Kuklos' 39 Articles

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #147 on: September 08, 2019, 03:51:07 pm »

Corrections Corner (Pyreneean Departement):
There is understandable confusion between
- TPR (the new event in Oct 2019, from the Transcon stable* i.e. MikeHall/Anna et al, held under pretty much the TCR rules) &
- The Trans-Pyrenees race, held earlier this year by a totally unrelated bunch. 2019 MAY be the 1st edition, I'm not sure.

*Nice pun.

I'll admit to being perplexed by the ultra-racing scene, the common cores seem to be the dot-watcher site, and Apidura sponsorship.

I'm gradually accumulating interviews with some the key figures, largely by accident. I didn't know Nicky Hall is now well known, having ridden the Two Coasts 600 with her in 2015, and encountered her at La Tremblay les village on PBP 2015. I've met Ultan Coyle, Hippy, Darren Franks, Ian To and Ede Harrison at the Mersey Roads, and Ede at LEL 2013 as well. I've interviewed Jasmijn Muller at LEL 2017, helped her with a dropped chain at the Mersey Roads, and filmed part of one of her LEJOG attempts.
There are various other encounters I'm sure. Adrian O' Sullivan at the top of the Conor Pass is one.

But at heart I'm a Randonneur/Tester. So I'm more comfortable with Andy Wilkinson, Gethin Butler, Michael Broadwith, Anco de Jong and Richard Leon, among many others. I checked to see what else Richard Leon is up to, and found an article on a chance encounter with Richard by someone covering the Tour de France. Richard does Air BnB in the Ardeche.
https://cyclingtips.com/2016/12/fortuitous-find-how-covering-the-tour-de-france-led-to-one-stunning-bike-collection/

quixoticgeek

  • Mostly Harmless
Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #148 on: September 08, 2019, 05:58:37 pm »

I'll admit to being perplexed by the ultra-racing scene, the common cores seem to be the dot-watcher site, and Apidura sponsorship.

Dotwatcher.cc is rather new, in fact the domain was only registered on 2018-02-21. I believe it is run by a yacfer, and TCRno5 rider.

As such it is newer than TABR, TCR, RttR, IPWR, TGBP, TAW, etc...

Dotwatching as a term, predates dotwatcher.cc by a number of years. I know I've been using it since I first got interested in ultra racing, back in 2016 (Which is all Emily's fault).

Apidura made a name for themselves as the original manufacturer of the tappered saddle bag that we all use (from what I can tell). They don't sponsor all ultra races, but they certainly have been a long term sponsor of the TCR.

The actual common core of ultra racing, is the bike, 2 wheels, chain driven, 9 small tubes etc... When you look at the bikes at the start of something like the TCR, there are a lot of bikes that have the apidura saddle bag, and a frame bag, and a couple of stem cells, and a handlebar bag. The classic "ultra racer" look. But you'll also see a good mix of other stuff. I spotted one TCR bike with panniers. Then there's been at least one Brompton on the last 2 editions. Mikko who has completed every single TCR so far, and I think his saddle bag is more of a carradice style than apidura.

If I was to make a *MASSIVE* generalisation, I'd say the main thing that differentiates ultra racers from audaxers, is age. Generally speaking, the age of those people I meet at ultra races is a lot lower than those I meet at brevets. My arrival at the start line of yesterdays 200k event in .nl lowered the average age of the starters by about 5 years.

But this is a generalisation. Most ultra-racers also do brevets. That said, James Hayden makes a point about the fact he's never done an Audax. Yesterdays event had at least 2 people who had started a TCR, and the same people had both also completed RatN.

J
--
Beer, bikes, and backpacking
http://b.42q.eu/

Phil W

Re: Cheating - maybe?
« Reply #149 on: September 08, 2019, 06:34:30 pm »

I'll admit to being perplexed by the ultra-racing scene, the common cores seem to be the dot-watcher site, and Apidura sponsorship.

Apidura made a name for themselves as the original manufacturer of the tappered saddle bag that we all use (from what I can tell). They don't sponsor all ultra races, but they certainly have been a long term sponsor of the TCR.

Apidura were far from the first to make the style of bags used in ultra racing or frame bags.  I'm pretty sure Mike used Revelate bags for his 2012 round the world race. https://www.revelatedesigns.com I bought a frame bag in 2010 from top peak. The zip eventually failed and I never went back to frame bags.

As to average age I think a lot of that is just related to the age of the people who get involved at the start of something.  Pretty sure when Audax uk was formed the average age was much younger. Look at riders from Thailand and some of the other newer Asian Audax nations. Much younger average age. When I joined my mountaineering club I was in my 20's as were many others in the club. The club aged with us.  I wonder, what the age profile of ultra racing will look like in 20 years time? Will it age with its early participants or will people stop doing it as they get older, being constantly replenished by a younger group of riders? Or will the next (younger) generation still growing up, see ultra racing as boring and go do something in a different format instead ?

As usual this thread has gone way off topic