Author Topic: The Bread Thread  (Read 64996 times)

Feanor

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #700 on: 13 January, 2022, 08:42:52 am »
Here's a photo of some Dutch Oven action this morning:


Dutch Oven by Ron Lowe, on Flickr

The Forkish baking method has you pre-heat the Dutch Oven to 245C for 45 mins.
Then put the loaf in, and bake lid-on for 30 mins.
Then lid-off for around 20 mins.

This photo was taken just as I removed the lid at 30 mins.

Beardy

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #701 on: 13 January, 2022, 09:31:01 am »
I used a large le creuset iron pot we have which seems to have worked well for half the dough I made last night. I’m not sure about the baking times though because it has come out quite brown. The recipe I used said 20 mins lid on and 40 mins lid off, all at 200*C oven pre-heated to 230*C beforehand.

My loaf also lacks the fancy lines because I don’t have any baskets to do the second proving. I may look at investing in some today.
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

citoyen

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #702 on: 13 January, 2022, 10:30:03 am »
The Forkish baking method has you pre-heat the Dutch Oven to 245C for 45 mins.
Then put the loaf in, and bake lid-on for 30 mins.
Then lid-off for around 20 mins.

Interesting. I've been mostly happy with the results from the dutch oven so far, but I've not been getting the big rise I was anticipating. Sounds like I need to crank the heat right up and leave the pan to preheat for longer.

I've got one baking right now that went in at 220 - shame I didn't see this post earlier... will try a higher temp with the next one.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #703 on: 13 January, 2022, 10:32:24 am »
My loaf also lacks the fancy lines because I don’t have any baskets to do the second proving. I may look at investing in some today.

I wouldn't worry about it. Lately, I've been using my bannetons with a liner to ensure the dough doesn't stick, so I've not got the fancy lines either. I've also been making smaller loaves using a mixing bowl lined with a muslin cloth - I need to invest in some smaller bannetons.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #704 on: 13 January, 2022, 10:50:59 am »
My loaf also lacks the fancy lines because I don’t have any baskets to do the second proving. I may look at investing in some today.

I have some un-asked for advice re bannetons...

If your dough is quite sticky (higher hydration, perhaps some rye flour in the mix, etc) then it can stick to the banneton and be difficult to plop it out for transferring to the Dutch Oven.
When you come to tip it out, you might find you need to grope your hand up between the dough and the banneton, and tease it out gently ( to avoid de-gassing the dough).
This will totally destroy the pretty banneton marks, but is otherwise cosmetic in my experience.
Assuming you have not over-manhandled the dough, it will actually bake fine, and rise as expected.

The cure for this is all down to how you flour the banneton:
Firstly, and I can't over-emphasise this, is to use a 50/50 mix of white rice flour and plain flour to flour the banneton. The rice flour does some actual magic and prevents sticking.

Secondly, use more flour than you think reasonable, and work it in very firmly. I tip the banneton on to it's side, and work around the banneton perhaps 3 or 4 times, pressing the flour mix as firmly as I can into 'cracks' between the weave. I don't want to see any un-floured gaps in the spiral. The upper sides of the banneton are quite vertical, and the flour will initially want to fall out when the banneton is sitting in it's normal orientation. Persevere. Add more flour, and continue pressing it in, until you can *gently* invert the banneton to empty any excess loose flour from the bottom, but the side walls remain floured. Do not 'dunt' the inverted banneton to remove excess flour: this will dislodge the stuff you want to remain. The banneton will hold the flour better after several uses.

After use, I *will* give it a gentle dunt to remove loose flour, and will leave it in the airing cupboard to fully dry overnight.
If you have had a sticky incident, dry it out and fully scrape any stuck dough out of the weave using a teaspoon handle or whatever. Residual dough in the weave can create a sticky point.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #705 on: 13 January, 2022, 11:43:07 am »
Also helps to "season" a new banneton before use - wet it and dust liberally with flour, leave to dry, shake out excess flour, and repeat the process a couple of times.

I use white rye flour but rice flour is probably better. You want something low in/free of gluten.

The reason I've been using liners is mostly because I'm too lazy to look after my bannetons properly. I'm not concerned with the bread looking pretty, I just want something to put my poached egg on for breakfast.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

citoyen

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #706 on: 13 January, 2022, 01:16:40 pm »
This morning's loaf - 100% white flour, ~65% hydration. Great flavour and texture, but could have done with a bit more lift:


Sourdough by citoyen, on Flickr


Sourdough by citoyen, on Flickr

"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Beardy

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #707 on: 13 January, 2022, 01:26:07 pm »
I'm glad I'm not the only one who gets flatter loaves :)

when you say 65% hydration, do you mean 35% dry and 65% wet ingredients? is that by weight or volume?

However, its been a while since I did any baking, and we've discovered a problem. the loaf i baked this morning is now all but gone and the other half of the dough is about to be baked into second loaf.

Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #708 on: 13 January, 2022, 01:44:51 pm »
when you say 65% hydration, do you mean 35% dry and 65% wet ingredients? is that by weight or volume?

No - liquid content as a percentage of the total flour weight.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baker_percentage

So, eg, 500g flour would need 325g water for 65% hydration.

It gets confusing with sourdough because the starter contains water - some people include that in the calculation, some don't (I do).
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Feanor

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #709 on: 13 January, 2022, 02:27:33 pm »
It gets confusing with sourdough because the starter contains water - some people include that in the calculation, some don't (I do).

I do, because Ken Forkish does.
Here's a photo of the Percentage table for the usual sourdough I make.

@Beardy: We always work with weight, not volume. Water is weighed rather than using a measuring jug, because you just can't get the accuracy with a jug. With weight, I'm working to a tolerance of a couple of grams. You just can't do that in a measuring jug by volume.


Bakers Percentages by Ron Lowe, on Flickr

The Levain starter is really quite wet. It's a mixture of wholemeal and plain, with water.
In this table, you can see that the 216g of levain contains 120g of flour, and 96g of water ( the equivalent if 80% ).
This is added to the Final Dough Mix to give the Total Recipe Quantity, to give a total flour weight of 1000g, with 780g of water, to give a final hydration of 78%.

Your loaf looks pretty good to me, btw.



Mrs Pingu

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #710 on: 13 January, 2022, 09:17:05 pm »
I was also baking at sparrow fart this morning. Haven't got far enough into the loaf to check for gummy bottom in today's experiment yet though.

I pondered buying some round bannetons but then came to the conclusion that my rye floured tea towel in a mixing bowl was working fine so didn't buy any more 'stuff'
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Beardy

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #711 on: 14 January, 2022, 12:23:26 am »
I’m wondering if bannetons are what I need or whether I can get by with parchment lined pudding basins. I’m going to carry on using the old casserole in place of a Dutch oven for the time being though as the results seem more than adequate. I do need a razor blade older though, the knifes I’ve been using are just not sharp enough.

I’ve also made a formal request to my off-spring for a Ken Forkish book for my birthday.
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #712 on: 14 January, 2022, 12:49:15 am »
I’m wondering if bannetons are what I need or whether I can get by with parchment lined pudding basins.

Don’t use parchment, use a muslin cloth or a tea towel.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Mrs Pingu

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #713 on: 14 January, 2022, 04:56:01 pm »
I am pleased to announce that yesterday's bread experiment did not result in a gummy bottom.

So at that rate it should only take about 6 months for me to finish up all that malted grain flour.

Or I could try going back to 40% of the malted grain and reduce the water a bit to see if that helps.
Hmm. I've not been scoring my dough, wonder if that would help.

Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Feanor

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #714 on: 14 January, 2022, 06:12:02 pm »
Hmm. I've not been scoring my dough, wonder if that would help.

I'm not a Slasher, preferring the natural look.
But it's just a personal cosmetic preference.

Doubt it will make much difference to the overall nature of the bread.
But do report back...

Beardy

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #715 on: 14 January, 2022, 10:14:55 pm »
I need to decide on the walk home from the pub whether I can be bothered to make a dough tonight for a first prove overnight in the fridge. It’ll still need a second prove in the morning but I should manage to have a loaf ready for lunch this way.
Blimey, who thought baking your own bread was straightforward.
Sorting my life out, one shed at a time.

citoyen

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #716 on: 14 January, 2022, 10:46:00 pm »
Doubt it will make much difference to the overall nature of the bread.

I would have thought the only difference scoring makes is giving you more control over where and how it rises during cooking. If you don't score it, it might split in the wrong place as it expands, resulting in misshapen loaves.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Mrs Pingu

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #717 on: 14 January, 2022, 11:06:45 pm »
What I was reading suggested letting more moisture out
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #718 on: 17 January, 2022, 03:49:00 pm »
Bit of a variation today.

My pure sourdough loaves have all been Ken's 'Overnight Country Blonde' recipe.
The flour mix in this is 804g White / 26g Wholemeal / 50g Rye, at 78% hydration.
This is quite a 'white' bread.

Today's effort was his 'Overnight Country Brown', which as it's name suggests, is a more 'brown' loaf.
The flour mix is 604g white / 276g Wholemeal and no Rye, again at 78% hydration.

It has quite a different flavour and texture, which I think works better.
It's a great all-purpose bread.

Re scoring, I think if the 'skin' on the dough is of the correct tension, then the steam ruptures through by itself perfectly well leaving a rather random and artisanal look about the ruptures and ears.


Overnight Country Brown by Ron Lowe, on Flickr

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #719 on: 17 January, 2022, 05:11:45 pm »
That does look very appetising indeed!

Lack of adequate surface tension is, I suspect, why my loaves are not hitting the heights, literally. I think this could be down to under-kneading or over-proving, or both, or other factors...

Made one this morning that turned out very nicely flavour-wise but once again failed to get the desired "oven spring" - it's far from being a pancake but is flatter than I'd like.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Mrs Pingu

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #720 on: 17 January, 2022, 05:34:34 pm »
Hmm, just seeing what the sourdough I was making in previous years worked out to be. It was Andrew Whiteley's Cromarty Cob which worked out to be 266g white, 266g wholemeal, 44g rye at 72% hydration, which I ended up reducing to 64%.


Anyhoo, I've decided that tomorrow's Forkish expt will be to go back to 200g of the Sainbo's malted flour in lieu of wholemeal and reducing hydration to 75% and see how that impacts the gummy bottom.
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Mrs Pingu

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #721 on: 17 January, 2022, 09:03:28 pm »
Problem with doing half hourly folds is when the kitty who rarely does laps decides to do laps.
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.

Feanor

  • It's mostly downhill from here.
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #722 on: 17 January, 2022, 09:59:16 pm »
Lack of adequate surface tension is, I suspect, why my loaves are not hitting the heights, literally.

There's a technique for shaping the loaves after the bulk fermentation ( first proof if you like ) before placing it in the banneton for the second proof, and this is a factor in the tension of the skin.

Tip the dough out of the mixing / bulk fermentation bukkit onto a floured surface.
If the dough is highly hydrated ( >65% for example ) it will be a little splurgy and might stick to the bowl. Tease it out gently to avoid de-gassing.
It will likely start to spread over the worktop.
Work quickly.

With floured hands, gather the spreading dough back into a semblance of shape, and then make a series of 4 folds from each side over to the opposite side.
Invert the folded dough ball, putting it fold side down (this will become the top of the finished loaf).
Now, we tension it like this:

Scooping from the back of the dough ball, leading with the little fingers at the base of the ball, drag the ball towards you on a lightly floured surface.
You don't want it to slide, you want it to drag.
Your little fingers are pulling the top skin of the dough towards the rear, and at the same time, the friction of the surface during the drag is pulling the top skin towards the front.
At the same time, you use the other fingers to stretch the skin to the left and right.

One the dough has been dragged 6 inches or so, pick it up, rotate the ball by 90 degrees and put it back at the start.
Repeat the process until you have done this all around the dough ball, say 4 times.

At the end of this, the dough ball should have enough tension to remain shaped, rather than splurging.
Go around again if it's too loose, but don't over-tension it. It should be *just* enough to not splurge.

Then scoop it up and place it in the banneton, fold-side down.
When you tip it out of the banneton at bake-time, the fold-side will be up, and that's how we scoop it into the dutch oven.

citoyen

  • Occasionally rides a bike
Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #723 on: 18 January, 2022, 09:46:31 am »
Scooping from the back of the dough ball, leading with the little fingers at the base of the ball, drag the ball towards you on a lightly floured surface.
You don't want it to slide, you want it to drag.
Your little fingers are pulling the top skin of the dough towards the rear, and at the same time, the friction of the surface during the drag is pulling the top skin towards the front.
At the same time, you use the other fingers to stretch the skin to the left and right.

This is pretty much what I do. But maybe I'm doing it wrong.

I need to go on a course or something, get someone to give me a hands-on demonstration. I have a local friend who makes the most beautiful loaves every time - I should ask her for help.
"The future's all yours, you lousy bicycles."

Mrs Pingu

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Re: The Bread Thread
« Reply #724 on: 18 January, 2022, 12:53:19 pm »
Might be worth trying to drop the hydration a little? Everyone's flour is different.

Anyway this is the result of the last experiment. Seems ok so far, I'll keep doing this until I've got rid of all the malted flour I have hoarded.
2022-01-18_12-47-59 by The Pingus, on Flickr

2022-01-18_12-48-12 by The Pingus, on Flickr
Do not clench. It only makes it worse.