Surrey Quays Superhighway - Pants

[ScumOfTheRoad]

I live in SE London and have been subject to buses being stuck for 20 minutes due to the roadworks for  this 'Cycling Superhighway'
I tried it out  today for the first time, south to north past the Surrey Quays  Overground station. And it is pants.
Short story - sets of bike traffic lights within 100 yards and crossing three busy junctions.

I attended the public meeting on this a couple of years ago and stated that gyratories were being removed all over London as they are a menace to cycles.
And not much good for cars either IMHO.
"On no" quoth traffic engineer "there is a bridge where the road crosses the overground and we cannot make this a 2 way road"
So  the gyratory system stays as is.

South to North the obstacles are

That funny junction to Lidl. Its OK for cyclists but cars turning right have that mental zebra crossing with the stealth stop line. Cars turning right are meant to give way to those going north/turning left towards Lidl. I can neverfigure that out - it really is unclear.

Next up - the odd junction at Plough Way. Cyclist sits at lights for ages with a long bit of tarmac empty in front. It is empty as few cars/buses turn left into Plough Way and there is a phase  where the bus emerges from Plough Way to go straight ahead through the bus only lane. Except there are precious few buses that do this.

Next the junction for the turn off to Redriff Way / Tescos.  Cyclist held at  traffic lights then has to follow the route across the road from right to left.
In my run a lorry had not cleared the juction when green cycle light, so I scooted round the back of him. Lorry driver not at fault in the slightest. This is a busy junction and I dont see cars leaving the cross marked route empty if they are queuing to go south. So cyclists will have to weave.

Next the junction at Surrey Quays station where the norhtbound gyratory traffic merges back in.  Yet again cyclists are held at the lights to let the motor  traffic cross in front of them.

The whole thing is a dogs breakfast. IMHO two things should have been done:

Make Lower Road two way and somehow cope with that rail bridge. Why not lights allowing only one set of motor traffic across at a time?
Then cycle superhighway goes round the back, taking the route of the northbound gyratory along Rotherhithe New Road

Get a safe way to link the off road cycle routes round the  docks  onto the rather nice off road route which starts at Rotherhothe New Road and goes past the Millwall ground.  Making that crossing now means taking your life in your hands.

[toontra]

You're certainly right about gyratories.  The nightmare spawn of 60's urban planners who fixated on cars being the future.  As you say, thankfully they're being ripped out across London.

Haven't been to Surrey Quays in the last few weeks but will nip down to Decathlon to have a look.  That particular gyratory was/is down right dangerous to everyone - cars/cyclists/pedestrians. 

Sounds like this "cycle provision" makes the usual mistake of penalising cyclists with multiple traffic lights that relegate them to the bottom of the priority list.  I now routinely move out onto the main carriageway when approaching them so I can progress with other traffic and not wait an age.

[grams]

Removing gyratories for general traffic is incredibly expensive and often results in a reduction in available space for bus lanes, cycle lanes and pavements because of the need to provide at least two lanes of general traffic everywhere (one for each direction) plus many more turning lanes etc.

I'm very glad TfL don't have the money to do more of it. Most of the schemes that were in development have been permanently scrapped.

Off road cycle routes are great if you want to (a) not get anywhere any time soon and (b) get mugged for your bike. That rather nice Millwall cycle route is notoriously patrolled by gangs on unrestricted ebikes.

[ScumOfTheRoad]

Surrey Quays is somewhat different. Lower Road is the natural route down to Deptford and would be two way for cars normally. It was made into a gyratory by shuntiny northbound cars onto a backstreet,

[citoyen]

Trouble is, as grams hints at, the bridge section is too narrow to handle the typical volume of traffic in both directions.

The real answer would be measures to reduce the volume of motor traffic.

Drivers blocking box junctions is ALWAYS entirely their fault. I bet they’d find it easier to comply if there were enforcement cameras in place. Likewise, “stealth” stop lines are only an issue for drivers who don’t know what give way signs mean.

The standard of driving generally in southeast London is appalling. I always used to get drivers aggressively overtaking on the stretch from London Bridge down to Rotherhithe then I would casually filter past them when they hit the gridlock at Surrey Quays. Idiots.

[toontra]

Surely there are countless examples of main roads that aren't 2-lane each way?  The creation of this particular gyratory seems to have included narrowing of the southbound section south of the bridge which could be reversed.  If the bridge section is the pinch point surely there would be an engineering solution to that - expensive yes but not out of the ordinary for these things.

[toontra]

Saw a post saying it took someone 5 minutes to travel the 300 yards of the new cycleway because of the phasing of the cycle traffic lights.  Sod that!

[Cudzoziemiec]

The real answer would be measures to reduce the volume of motor traffic.

This is almost always the answer, and we (councils, highways depts, governments) are almost always too nervous to take it.

[telstarbox]

I don't think that's a fair criticism in this location. London since 2000 has had the Congestion Charge, the phased introduction of ULEZ, cycle superhighways, new buses, several new railway lines and contactless payment all shifting travel away from cars. On the car side there haven't been any significant new roads and the parking supply has reduced - lots of new flats in Zones 1 and 2 are now car free.

[Pickled Onion]

Plus various cycle hire schemes.

A fair criticism is that the phasing of lights in most places still heavily favours motor traffic over cycles and pedestrians.

Some people will always jump the lights, but it would probably be far less normalised if you didn't have the silliness like the 5 mins for 300 m or so mentioned above.

[ScumOfTheRoad]

I jumped the lights myself here.  At the north end of the gyratory, nothing was moving. I decided to chance crossing over the northbount motor traffic lanes and sure enough they started moving... i ha to nip over and stop on the cycle track.

[hubner]

Removing gyratories for general traffic is incredibly expensive and often results in a reduction in available space for bus lanes, cycle lanes and pavements because of the need to provide at least two lanes of general traffic everywhere (one for each direction) plus many more turning lanes etc.

I'm very glad TfL don't have the money to do more of it. Most of the schemes that were in development have been permanently scrapped.

Off road cycle routes are great if you want to (a) not get anywhere any time soon and (b) get mugged for your bike. That rather nice Millwall cycle route is notoriously patrolled by gangs on unrestricted ebikes.

Gyratories are great for drivers travelling through an area but awful for everyone else. Do you mean the building of new gyratories or the removal of them have been permanently scrapped?

[grams]

The projects to remove them have been scrapped. The most notable being Vauxhall, which proposed replacing 5+ lanes of thundering gyratory with 5+ lanes of thundering two way traffic.

Fans of Gyratory Removal for its own sake are welcome to visit the pedestrian paradise of Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale. It turns out the problem isn't gyratories, it's dedicating oodles of space to people in cars.

[toontra]

The projects to remove them have been scrapped. The most notable being Vauxhall, which proposed replacing 5+ lanes of thundering gyratory with 5+ lanes of thundering two way traffic.

Fans of Gyratory Removal for its own sake are welcome to visit the pedestrian paradise of Seven Sisters / Tottenham Hale. It turns out the problem isn't gyratories, it's dedicating oodles of space to people in cars.

I cycle here regularly.  I think it's vastly improved for cycling since the removal of the gyratory.  Previously it was literally a 3-lane racetrack southbound.  I was nearly wiped out several times.  I'm astonished you think it's somehow worse now.

Thinking about it, most of the places in London I find/found the most dangerous to ride were gyratories.  Take Theobald's Road - cyclists have regularly been killed there.

I agree there can be a compromise - send motor vehicles on a gyratory system but keep (or create) a direct dedicated cycle.  I'm not sure why this couldn't have been implemented at Surrey Quays.

[grams]

I cycle here regularly.  I think it's vastly improved for cycling since the removal of the gyratory.  Previously it was literally a 3-lane racetrack southbound.  I was nearly wiped out several times.  I'm astonished you think it's somehow worse now.

I think it got exactly the same.

If it were still a gyratory for cars you could convert one of those lanes to a cycle track as is being done (in a somewhat obtuse way) at Nag's Head. No chance of doing that now.

I agree there can be a compromise - send motor vehicles on a gyratory system but keep (or create) a direct dedicated cycle. 

Yes!

[ScumOfTheRoad]

I agree there can be a compromise - send motor vehicles on a gyratory system but keep (or create) a direct dedicated cycle.  I'm not sure why this couldn't have been implemented at Surrey Quays.

That has been done at Surrey Quays. But it is pants because the cyclist is held at three sets of lights at least within a couplf of hundred yards.
Also the cycle track crosses the gyratory - so at two points the cyclist crosses lanes of motor traffic where cars etc. are being held at red lights.
As I say when busy these junctions will fill up with stuck cars - it happens regularly here, I know as I drive there too.

[toontra]

I agree there can be a compromise - send motor vehicles on a gyratory system but keep (or create) a direct dedicated cycle.  I'm not sure why this couldn't have been implemented at Surrey Quays.

That has been done at Surrey Quays.

Ah OK - misunderstood the layout.  Will have to have a look first-hand. D'you reckon it'd actually be quicker for cyclists to use the old gyratory detour?

[ScumOfTheRoad]

TBH, no not quicker to use the old detour.

[cygnet]

I don't think that's a fair criticism in this location. London since 2000 has had the Congestion Charge, the phased introduction of ULEZ, cycle superhighways, new buses, several new railway lines and contactless payment all shifting travel away from cars. On the car side there haven't been any significant new roads and the parking supply has reduced - lots of new flats in Zones 1 and 2 are now car free.

Are they though? Or do they just park more cars on the pre-existing roads and walk 5minutes, like they walk 5minutes to the tube?

[telstarbox]

The new flats I'm familiar with in Lewisham have no on site parking and the addresses are blacklisted from obtaining a street parking permit. Nearly all of the borough is Controlled Parking Zones so it would be very difficult to get round it.

https://www.london.gov.uk/programmes-strategies/planning/london-plan/the-london-plan-2021-online/chapter-10-transport#policy-t6-car-parking-171057-title

[Mr Larrington]

The new flats I'm familiar with in Lewisham have no on site parking and the addresses are blacklisted from obtaining a street parking permit. Nearly all of the borough is Controlled Parking Zones so it would be very difficult to get round it.

https://www.london.gov.uk/programmes-strategies/planning/london-plan/the-london-plan-2021-online/chapter-10-transport#policy-t6-car-parking-171057-title

Which makes a nice change from when Miss von Brandenburg first started working as an architect with an outfit based in Clapham.  One of her projects was denied planning permission because insufficient parking provision.

It was a hostel for the homeless.