Krakow and Auschwitz-Birkenau

[Zoidburg]

I think the Russian figures skew things as the Russians and then the Soviets have always managed to kill off their population through general deprevation and folly at a huge rate as a matter of course(warfare or not).

[Ham]

Stack it up how you like, at both the Somme and Verdun there were almost 1,000,000 casualties.

It's not the numbers, it's the mindset. Those battles went absolutely nowhere. The Generals just piled the bodies in.

[Cudzoziemiec]

But the cannon fodder stalemate in WWI was uniquely brutal in terms of the extended and continued adherence to matching man (and horse) against machine gun.

Except for the beginning of WWII, when the German tank invasion of Poland was met with charges of what was at the time the world's largest cavalry. If you ever get the chance to see contemporary footage of some of those battles, with soldiers on horseback charging valiantly but hopelessly against tanks, do so and boggle. It's such a clash of eras that you would hardly be surprised to see lances shattering against armoured steel. It sums up the Polish spirit of vain valour and 'martyrology'.

Anyway, glad you liked Krakow.

[Exit Stage Left]

But the cannon fodder stalemate in WWI was uniquely brutal in terms of the extended and continued adherence to matching man (and horse) against machine gun.

Except for the beginning of WWII, when the German tank invasion of Poland was met with charges of what was at the time the world's largest cavalry. If you ever get the chance to see contemporary footage of some of those battles, with soldiers on horseback charging valiantly but hopelessly against tanks, do so and boggle. It's such a clash of eras that you would hardly be surprised to see lances shattering against armoured steel. It sums up the Polish spirit of vain valour and 'martyrology'.

Anyway, glad you liked Krakow.

The Soviets had some success in using cavalry in WW2.
Lone Sentry: Cavalry in Mass, Soviet Doctrine for Employing Horse-Mounted Troops (WWII U.S. Intelligence Bulletin, May 1946)

[bikepacker]

More or less how I felt about Dachau. Not exactly fun, but I don't regret going.

I have similar sentiments after my visit to Dachau. What surprised me was it's close proximity to Munich.

[Zoidburg]

But the cannon fodder stalemate in WWI was uniquely brutal in terms of the extended and continued adherence to matching man (and horse) against machine gun.

Except for the beginning of WWII, when the German tank invasion of Poland was met with charges of what was at the time the world's largest cavalry. If you ever get the chance to see contemporary footage of some of those battles, with soldiers on horseback charging valiantly but hopelessly against tanks, do so and boggle. It's such a clash of eras that you would hardly be surprised to see lances shattering against armoured steel. It sums up the Polish spirit of vain valour and 'martyrology'.

Anyway, glad you liked Krakow.

The Soviets had some success in using cavalry in WW2.
Lone Sentry: Cavalry in Mass, Soviet Doctrine for Employing Horse-Mounted Troops (WWII U.S. Intelligence Bulletin, May 1946)

Germany and the Soviets both still relied on horses very heavily, the Germans ate most of theirs at Stalingrad though. The idea of the motorised blitzkrieg is overstated.

The only fuly mechanized army in 1939 was the British army.

[Jord]

The Soviet army marched many men against machine guns - often unarmed and relying on picking up their fallen comrades weapons with a blocking battalion to machine gun anyone from the rear who wanted to turn around!

WW1 was awful but to think it was worse than fighting on the Eastern front in WW2 is a little naive. 12 millions combatants and 20 million civilians in four years makes the Somme figures look economic. The Russian army lost over 2 million in weeks at the beginning of WW2. Just stop for a second and think about the daily death rate.

All wars are hell lets stop trying to say one is worse than the other - and thank our blessings that we live in more peaceful times.

[Cudzoziemiec]

Interesting, thanks. It seems horses were used in WWII far more than I thought. Nevertheless, the film I've seen of hussars directly charging tanks does seem to prize valour over effectiveness - and it didn't do the Polish army much good, did it?

[Zoidburg]

The Soviet army marched many men against machine guns - often unarmed and relying on picking up their fallen comrades weapons with a blocking battalion to machine gun anyone from the rear who wanted to turn around!

WW1 was awful but to think it was worse than fighting on the Eastern front in WW2 is a little naive. 12 millions combatants and 20 million civilians in four years makes the Somme figures look economic. The Russian army lost over 2 million in weeks at the beginning of WW2. Just stop for a second and think about the daily death rate.

All wars are hell lets stop trying to say one is worse than the other - and thank our blessings that we live in more peaceful times.

Thats what I was trying to say as well but others felt the need to polarise the argument.

[Exit Stage Left]

The Soviet army marched many men against machine guns - often unarmed and relying on picking up their fallen comrades weapons with a blocking battalion to machine gun anyone from the rear who wanted to turn around!

Penal battalions were used in that role.
Penal military unit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Ham]

All wars are hell lets stop trying to say one is worse than the other - and thank our blessings that we live in more peaceful times.

I'd agreed with that before you wrote it ....

[JohnP]

More or less how I felt about Dachau. Not exactly fun, but I don't regret going.

I have similar sentiments after my visit to Dachau.

We were in the Dachau area in June enjoying a group trip down the Romantische Strasse.  I didn't really want to visit but the rest of the group did so ---  not fun but had to be done.

I have similar thoughts about Oradour-sur-Glane that we visited in 2009.

I was unable to get to the end of the museum in the citadel in Besancon a few years ago - it just built up on me and I turned back about 3/4 of the way through.

[fhills]

I went to Auschwitz-Birkenau in, I think, 86.

No doubt it's changed now due to the wall coming down. Some of the info boards in the main vistor centre at Auschwitz showed signs of Communist era dogma - I well remember some bit on the experience of the Jews in various countries, and unless my memory is faulty, the Hungary board started off saying there was no anti- semitism in Hungary until the beastly Nazis arrived. er, not very credible somehow.

It sounds awful to say it but despite the chill of the main gate with its infamous motto, the heaps of possessions left by the departed and some of the cells, the main bit seemed a little too cleaned up.

Agree with Jurek that a walk down the road to Auschwitz Birkenau (it really did feel untouched since 45) gave a far stronger impression of the horror and scale of the operation.

My memories of Krakow somewhat lighter, depite being told to hand over my passport and camera when some guards asked me to accompany them to a guard hut outside Nova Hutta steelworks

[spindrift]

I visit Krakow about five times a year. I love it, lovely people, hearty food, great jazz clubs, stunning architecture.

I recommend Kazimierz too, the old Synagogue is lovely and the whole area is quaint and unspoiled with some great pubs (Omerta if you like beer!) Just over the new cycle bridge is Podgorze where you can visit the Schindler factory- now a museum after a lengthy refit. You might recognise bits of Kazimierz from Spielberg's film.

I've been to Auschwitz a few times. It annoyed the hell out of me that schoolkids were walking round munching sandwiches and giggling, then I got annoyed at myself for letting it bother me.  It's a chilling place, it's just too much to take in. The corridors are lined with photos of inmates with their date of incarceration and date of death. Very few lasted more than a year. The mounds of hair and glasses are still there. And the old huts are still standing, or at least the chimneys are, the wooden parts have rotted away.

Gorecki, the Polish composer heard about a message written on the cell wall of gestapo headquarters near Krakow by an 18 year old girl. He composed a symphony using the girl's words and rare permission was granted to film the symphony at Auschwitz, unbearably moving:


  <a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/miLV0o4AhE4&rel=1" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/v/miLV0o4AhE4&rel=1</a>

It's a place hard to describe in words, Gorecki's music is the most chillingly beautiful thing I've heard, I hope it's not out of place to post it here.

[Eccentrica Gallumbits]

The only place I've ever been which was anything like is Changi Prison Museum, which was unbearably moving.